Appertaing to the main VR forum threads.
Since we no longer have a percentage going towards our status for making posts here, is it me or have the threads really gone down hill (including my own)?
Could it be that the Dominars aren't pressured any longer to keep the crap out?
What do you think would 'wake up' the forum ... what would you like to see?
Or maybe you feel it's fine how it is ... what makes it 'fine?
The forum always goes in and out of slumps. Since the removal of the 'forum posts' portion of the status system, there seem to be a lot less pointless one-liner responses. I haven't actually noticed any difference in the moderation of threads, as they're still being closed and/or cleaned up when necessary in accordance with site guidelines.
I wasn't referring to the responses in the threads, but the actual thread title (subject)!
I think the responses will always be the way they are due to the age and mentality of some on this site.
Ahh, well again, the forum always goes in and out of slumps. For a week or more, nothing interesting will show up, then all of a sudden, several interesting threads pop up, then it gets boring again.
Not to mention, as each idea is discussed, there become fewer and fewer things to talk about.
So you agree that it does need a mega shake up .. or down.
What if societies had to make a thread (could be discussed within their coven) and had to argue it ... debate it with the rest of VR.
Maybe favs could be awarded, but I'm ahead of myself here.
Surly this would create not only great cove/house activity but improve the general quality of the forum.
Just a thought!
So? Which is it BloodLife?
The Dominar's aren't pressured to do our jobs ...
or
... the Forums need to be shocked back to life by the members?
Although the forums are the main focus of the site, they should make them more beneficial to post on. Half the crap thats on here isnt worth replying to.
*pulls up a stool and takes a seat*
No, no, no ... my good Sire. You started this tread - by all means, please; share with us what you feel the Forums and Dominars are lacking.
I thrive on constructive feedback.
It's been going down hill for some while, however, I do think that pace has increased due to the new changes.
I've also noticed a lack of participation in general, myself included.
One reason, I think, some of the "bad" threads are kept open is because there are so few good ones, gotta keep up the appearance of forum interest nowadays lol.
As for what could be done I feel some Dominars cold be more active (others less so, or at least abide by the rules and keep up some manor of uniformity, not closing/erasing threads/replies based on personal feelings etc) and I think members should take pride in a site they help build and maintain by opening up good threads and giving educated replies. It wouldn't hurt for there to be stricter rules when it comes to replies and threads either, nor would it hurt to make it an offense to post stupid replies.
I used to be very active in here but the lack of participation by others, lack of decent threads, mentally challenged replies/threads and the new status changes have made it more of an obligation than something fun/interesting to do, so why do it?
"or at least abide by the rules and keep up some manor of uniformity"
I am very much aware of the rules and not everyone goes by them. There is also line that can be crossed when it comes to just being fair etc even if it "technically" falls within the scope of the rules.
As someone has said before I think the forum goes through slumps.
Then there are the repeat threads, which are bound to happen with new people joining.
I confess I can't think of a topic which has'nt been covered at great length, so I wait and watch...and hope the brighter sparks can come up with something of interest.
Xzavier~ great post as always. Bang on in so many ways...
LordVlkodlak~
*mind if I pull up a stool too?!!* .. too late!
I have no idea what has been set out by Cancer, I can only imagine it must have been very general to include all the different levels of 'people' that have earned (or not) the Dominar logo.
The only thing I have ever asked from you guys is that you keep it the same across the board. I see one Dom closing a thread 'because' ...! and another keeping a similar thread open 'because...! I would like to see some unification across the board.
If you've read my journal you will see that I have nothing but admiration for Doms and Sens alike, your job is hard enough but surly it would be made simpler if it wasn't left to interpretation of an individual who maybe out their depth when judging a particular thread, word or picture.
If you feel this entry is inappropriate for an open thread I would be more than happy to pm theses views.
BloodLife ... if I felt that this was an innapropriate thread - I would have closed it far before now.
Instead, it is a valid topic. If pertains to the Dark Network. My concern about this turning into a 'bash the Dom' thread has been quieted.
I leave this open to allow the membership to provide some feedback on how the Dominars do their jobs. I shall open a door of opportunity to have (respectful) criticisim made .. and perhaps 'we' can learn something.
LordVlkodlak~
Thank you, always the gentleman, full of ... integrity!
But this is not just about VR's admin. I would love to see some posts on 'Thread Quality' too.
What do you guys really want to see??
I don't think anyone is bashing Dominars, I said some, which is true and it is a *part* of the problem. This thread in general is very good and spot-on.
''Could it be that the Dominars aren't pressured any longer to keep the crap out?''
I agree with what LordVlkodlak is saying. Helpful and respectful criticism is never harmful.
As far as being a dominar goes there is a good bit entailed, and there are a few of us that are still new and trying to grasp our bearings, I will up to being one of those. lol.
Now I will say this... it is just as I have told my coven in the past..... and this is just my two sense and opinion of it all.....
Yeh I can say that activity in the forums has dropped, and then those that like to be active aren't as active for the lack of intellectual conversations to post in..... Here's the thing, having said all that..... A forum is only as good as you make it. If you (I say you and mean no one in particular) do not see anything you feel post worthy but you wish to post, come up with a thread you feel post worthy.
I do realize that it is a task as most things have been covered, but it obviously must be possible if it is being done at least upon occasion.
At the end of the day if everyone that enjoy posting in the forums did that then there would in theory be more to discuss....... As I said.... just my opinion.
I always thought it would be interesting to have a thread simply for debates of topics dark network related..... BUT I decided to never do so as it would simply lead to immaturity and the closing of the thread because someone would end up getting angry... I believe that alone is part of what is happening with the forums..... The mere fact that human nature can not seem to get along to speak on something without someone getting offended and attacking someone then it ends up in an explosive mess that is totally pointless.
BLOODLIFE -
It might depend on which part you're asking about. Many of the Dominars do still do their job in the Forum, but there are a few who have never been much active even before the change.
Or if you think it being an opinion that I think many of the forum users only posted here to gain status, that's rather something I've noticed over the past three years; I've seen many members post in the forum or in their journal stating the only reason they did post in the forum was to gain status. And to be quite honest all they technically did was spam.
CuRsEdToDaRkNeSs - I agree with you 100%! Things would go a long way if people would hold back their emotional spouts and not always think people are "out to get them."
Of course then there are people like me who could do more in the forum since things have gone down hill. Like I said before though it almost seems more of a duty than an enjoyable thing nowadays. I don't mind the feeling of obligation (as opposed to being in here just for fun) but it wouldn't hurt if there were more active members and topics.
CuRsEdToDaRkNeSs~
Topics about The Dark Network I believe will come about as they would not just be interesting but would be essensial as the Network grows.
It does amaze me that you didn't post these threads because of the reasons you stated thereby undermining the abilities of the Doms to do their job ... do you still feel that way?
MBK~
Thank you for making that clearer, it was indeed the second part that I refered to... and yes I do agree. (there's a first, lol)
I also agree when it was said that some topics that are considered to be 'on the edge', be it with religious connotations are now being left a little longer to see their direction come to fruition.
Bloodlife to answer your question yes I do still feel that way..... as a dominar my opinion doesn't change.....
I feel it not undermining us to do our job, I feel it senseless to cause arguments and stupidity amongst people and unneeded drama.
Drama is something I personally do not tolerate, which is why I have the reputation of the drama nazi in the vamp box. That said I can tell you that as far as I am aware any dominar would close down a thread that had drama starting if after a warning has been given the drama continues.... Ergo, the point of a debate thread is as I said obsolete. Human nature can not debate something without drama. I've seen it to many times, given to many warnings, and closed enough threads personally to know it a bad idea.
CuRsEdToDaRkNeSs~
Thank you for clearing that up, it does however throw up even more points. Would a thread then be closed halfway through because 'drama' suddenly spang up closing what could have been a perfectly good debate..
There will always be a type of drama that is written into the personality of the thread, but it can also work for the good of the thread. It can bring passion and interest.
But as you said, drama for it's own sake is never welcome.
Bloodlife this is how it works with me.....
If I go into a thread and the drama is beyond minor and people are simply arguing and bashing at one another, I will put out a warning to clear it up...... After that one warning which is all I will give, if it continues to be the case of immaturity and not wanting to simply converse and share opinion then yes I will close it.
There is a right way to do things and a wrong as there is in every situation in life...... some people choose to go about things in the wrong way which can ruin the fun for all those that go about the correct way of doing things..... it is sad yes, but the truth...
When confronted with a thread like that the case typically ends up this...... everyone takes sides...... and then each side bash one another leading to name calling and just nonsense...... Which is why I feel that a thread such as I mentioned although would be fun would be a disaster in the making.
CuRsEdToDaRkNeSs~
That sounds a fair and good way of dealing with arising problems. No one likes to see a thread becoming 'personal'.
Great for spectators thou :-p
Now as far as your idea goes Bloodlife.....
If you choose to have your coven come up with a thread topic every now and again, that is totally up to you.... I fancy the idea personally...... I'm not saying all covens should or have to do this, but it isn't a bad idea if you have the time and choose to do so. It could give the opportunity for many threads to arise based on the opinions of the coven itself, so long as the research was done to make certain it wasn't a topic that has been beaten to death with a large wooden stick. lol.
CuRsEdToDaRkNeSs~
OMG, that was just an 'off the top' thought to get some input into this thread, however, I may sujest something to my society.
You have nailed one very big problem, discussing a topic that hasn't been flogged. Most of the main topics have been flogged on VR which in itself is credit to this site. I'm sure with the Sci-Fi site now doing well it may be easier to find some new material as it is part of The Dark Network.
Disclaimer: Bloodlife, I like you. I always have. Know my sarcasm isn’t harsh.
You say that you want standardized moderation across the board. Well, this reminds me of a saying my mom used to say to me, “People in hell want ice water” The thing is, you raised two separate issues in your thread: the question of moderation and the issue of improving the forum.
A Dominar is not tasked with thread creation, so creative improvement has to come from the general membership. Dominars moderate based on their interpretation of Cancer’s rules. So by design, Dominars will see things differently. This is to allow for a wider variety of responses and personalities. Being a Dominar and having to make those calls is subjective and a generally thankless job. I hope that it never becomes the case that personalities are removed from the Dominar position and they simply become robot-a-trons.
Members need to take more responsibility for policing themselves if they are unsatisfied with the quality of their forums. :)
Sevenn, your input is always welcomed especially since it was you that inspired me from the day I found VR. It was you that closed my first thread .. lol
I don't wish to harp on the point about how I see Dominars. This thread was never set out to bash them or any VR staff as is obvious.
*wait for it*
''However'', if an improvement does come out of this thread then all well and good.
Having standardization doesn't mean we will be creating robotrons (there is a dig I could put here, lol), the personalities of many of VR's staff are already known, I don't need to mention names. It is not so much the Doms that need changing but the way VR's members see how things get run in the forum and they will instinctly know what is considered a reasonable post, or thread. It won't come over night but it will come.
There are only a handful of the general membership that actually take the time to consider a post (let alone literate enough to make a thread). It's been said once here already by a member that he is kept away from the forum because of .... well lack of decent input. It's also one of the reasons I stay clear of the forum. No big deal, only two names among the thousands. But as my mum use to say, ''when you pull at a tiny thread of cotton from a sweater, you'll be left with the cotton'' (well I know what I meant).
I am not disagreeing with anything you are saying, you've read my journal entries, time and again I have praised the Doms and Sens for their unpaid time. I still do.
VR can do without a reputation for having a forum that is boring especially when there are decent members willing to help it grow. Sure it's the responsibility of it's members to do this, hence this thread.
I personally feel that the Dominars are doing a fine job. It seems to me that for the most part what they do is uniform.
Now, as to "spiffing up" the forum threads, I have to say that there isn't much that hasn't been covered already and hauled over a million times.
As far as the idea about Covens debating topics in the Main Forum, I feel that I expect enough from them at this point already and anything more may take away from them feeling relaxed here. Too many expectations doesn't make for much fun and we already have a place for such discussions in our coven forum if they wish to partake.
Vampirewitch39 Royal Sire (205) Posts: 1,062 Honor: 24,600 [ Give / Take ] |
I would like to see the percentages on the Database increase since the new points rule change. And the one lines, bull crap that the forum has lost due to the change. I don’t think it would be a stretch to say the database has had a flood of submissions while the forum has quiet down. Is that a bad thing? Not in my opinion.
People want to complain about the forum- well do something about it. Cancer has taken those who just posted to level up out of this, it should be full of those who WANT to use it now. Use it to learn, to debate, to freaking TALK about vampires and other subject we all like or would not be here to begin with.
Understand the site brings in all kinds of members of age and background – different opinions, thoughts and experiences will be shown here. You great thinkers and debaters need to come back and make the forum what it use to be when the site first started. ( Or so I told of ) Really- what is stopping you?
Dominars are doing a great job handling a forum that is now covering everything under the sun as all the sites forums are running into this one. Maybe that is what you don’t like? Maybe all the sites need their own main forums? Who knows… but taking the ‘post’ just to level up was a move in the right direction to me.
VR is often plagued with a sense of nostalgia. I have heard many times how "back in the good ol' days" things were a rockin' and could not possibly compare to the current state of affairs. But the good times are different time periods for everyone, and in a year or two some might say this is the glory days. We have all but removed the desire for people to tack on “I agree” at the end of every thread and when people do post, it is because they are interested in a subject and not to try and climb the VR ladder.
The forum has always been one of my favorite aspects of Vampire Rave. Where else can you learn about a monster in Oklahoma, discuss vampire ethics, or learn about the Temple of the Vampire? I had never even heard of Huna magic, wyvern, or let alone think of using sleep or sensory deprivation as a path to spiritual enlightenment. All I have to do is go back through two or three pages of the current forum and I have the opportunity to read about things that I have never been exposed to before. I might not always have the knowledge to contribute, but when I do I chime in. That is all that we can do.
Sure there will always be a need for more involvement and fresh perspectives, but VR just added another 48 profiles to its membership in the past 24 hours. More people with unique insights and hungry minds that hopefully will find their way here and contribute with the thousands of other members on this site.
I like that the forum can now be used for genuine use and that quick points can't be achieved off the back of someone else.
But when a forum has been allowed 'leeway' to encourage threads for it's own sake ..... I really don't want to name threads here but some are just a complete piss take!
meeper, you mentioned a few decent threads but you also know that they are out numbered by crap.
As for fresh blood coming to VR (which is great news). I'm currently talking to one now .... I would show you the conversation but just in case it were read here she may never come back .... in other words I speak of quality in people, I'm no great debater or converstaionalist but ....!!
Decent is relative to one's own interests. As this site is a collective, there are bound to be some that I may not care for and others that I love. The one's some might consider crap, might be the same threads that other's specifically look for when the log on.
I still think we have selective memory that polishes away the imperfections of the past :)
I've observed the same slump effect as LaMuerte, but the depth seems deeper and is lasting longer.
I like your idea Bloodlife of a Forum Challenge.
One observation: I've sometimes posted the same threads in the Main Forum (or Sandbox), and in our House Forum.
They've taken completely different directions. We know each other, feel more open, but we're responding to each other.
Not sure if its the lack of moderation or not (not saying I don't think there should be moderation).
Many people are frustrated by the lack of Forum interaction with other posters. That is, people are anxious to get their thought out regardless of what has been posted previously. They read the question and skip down to the end.
People like to be acknowledged and the best forums are where people build on each other's ideas, if possible.
In older threads, say back in '06 and '07, vr was smaller (I assume) and the threads are interesting not so much because of the brilliant or conclusive input as that people seem to know one another and are reacting to what the other wrote.
Cartomancer Arch Sire (194) Posts: 1,252 Honor: 91,862 [ Give / Take ] |
Meeper, you brought up something before I had a chance to say it :P I was thinking the same thing when I read the initial post here, but started reading through the thread before I posted and saw yours.
People always talk about the 'old' forum and how much better it used to be, or how it is declining. I don't really see much of a difference except the avatars and names are different. You have great posters, they get tired and move on, and new group comes in- new groups of all kinds.
I joined in 2005- I see people talk about the good old days in 2006 and more recent... I don't remember anything then that what so much greater. We just have our ups and downs.
Some of those GREAT posters are still here, just hiding out, waiting to be summoned by something new and not beaten to death like the mangey dog it is :P
I really think that everyone here has expressed valuable insight to the forums. One of the things that I would personally love to see in the forums is further categorization of the forums. Well, specifically, further categorization of the "Things pertaining to the Dark Network" forum. The other three can do whatever they like, as far as I'm concerned.
As far as categorization of the forum is concerned, what I would like to see is things broken up a little bit. That's all, nothing big or fancy. An example would be the databases. You enter a database and then you can choose: books, clothing, jewelery, etc... Everyone has varying interests, myself included, and as it is I find I need to wade through mountains of threads that are of no particular interest in order to find something worth reading and perhaps, posting a response.
As a side note, I have been a bit frustrated by how quickly a sci-fi thread tends to be obliterated. I just quickly looked through the first 60 threads and save the Superhero/villain thread, all were only related to vampires, magic, and the like. I have witnessed several sci-fi related threads culled in their infancy because they were not Dark Network related. Perhaps this has changed and there is no interest in posting to the Main Forum with the existence of Sci-Fi Groups. To be honest, I haven't been keeping score for a few weeks. And, for my part, I could be doing something more to start said threads. Anyway, like I said, just a side bar.
Cartomancer Arch Sire (194) Posts: 1,252 Honor: 91,862 [ Give / Take ] |
furcifer: Thanks for that sidebar. If you see legit scifi threads being closed, please point them out to an upper Administrator (sometimes having another Dominar re-open a thread can cause an issue and we can keep that from being the case). The Dark Network now encompasses a far greater span of topics- and vampires/magic topics are not more important than any other topic under this new realm.
We will have an influx of people joining from PowerPunks.com and SciFiSection.com... they aren't going to understand why their subjects are on the backburner.
imagesinwords, that is refreshing to hear.
It would be nice not to see the word 'vampire' for awhile if the forum were to be flooded by other threads from the Darknetwork.
But that said, wont the name 'Vampire Rave' seem ... well out of place? just a thought!
Bloodlife you like to ask hard questions :)
In truth I have always been more of a reader of the forum than a poster, even of the more off the wall threads.
I like the fact we all have different views and that includes the dominars. It's part of what makes the site and forum interesting to me.
Since the topics now include the whole of the Dark Network there are hundreds of more things to discuss it just needs members to show interest in doing so.
Cartomancer Arch Sire (194) Posts: 1,252 Honor: 91,862 [ Give / Take ] |
Bloodlife, you said: It would be nice not to see the word 'vampire' for awhile if the forum were to be flooded by other threads from the Darknetwork.
But that said, wont the name 'Vampire Rave' seem ... well out of place? just a thought!
Well... that might be how the sole scifi and powerpunks people feel about the forum as it stands now. They might not see where their genre fits it and don't post because it seems totally off on a different path then they thought it would be.
Not everyone is viewing this forum under 'Vampire Rave' anymore. We have to branch out- or we will never gain any momentum with the other sites as far as the main forum is concerned.
images...~
I'm not disagreeing with you, as I've stated, it would be great to see input from the other areas of the Dark Network.
I'm certain anyone who wanted to post a thread from another section wouldn't feel intimidated just because they don't see their topic among the threads here.
It's early days yet but I'm sure people will begin to post.
Personally, I think it would improve the forum to see a few of those who promote open-mindedness begin to realize that it's a two-way street. How many times have we seen people start a thread asking for information, and then they cut and run with an accusatory parting-shot when the information is provided but doesn't support their pet beliefs?
I suppose the most concise way to put it is to suggest an increase in intellectual honesty. If you have a pet belief but the evidence doesn't support it or refutes it, recognize that the belief is most likely incorrect. I hold far more respect for those who recognize their own failure to support their beliefs than those who run off in a huff as soon as they realize they're unable to support their assertions and who then accuse everyone else of requesting "proof".
For the record, "proof" is not a realistic standard nor is it one I've seen requested by myself or most of the others who are often accused of demanding "proof". Evidence and proof aren't the same thing and any assertion which is devoid of supporting evidence or contrary to the evidence is already defeated before it's even presented. So if you can't support your affectionately-held beliefs, it's not our fault.
Wrong a belief is in the eye of the beholder! who are any of us to say some ones view is wrong?
That is what I think the problem with the forums is.
is that if some one believes some thing and some one else doesn't they try and make the other look stupid they come off very condescending. no one can prove God is real yet they still believe in him it or what ever, Just as the Wiccans they pray to their gods and goddesses. but when asked to prove their power you must first believe.
I think when people just let people be who they are and believe ib what ever they want to things will be better... many people I know and talk to say they stay away from the forums because of people like dabbler.
I really dont care what any of you think of me or my Views. I am only here for others who have the same belief's
but I tend to stay away from the forums because of the way people always jump off putting Vampyres/vampires down saying we are stupid or crazy because we are not real or what ever .. as it has been said time and time again it says The Home of Real Vampires but yet when some one brings a topic up about true life Vampyres they are flamed. the point I am trying to make is this. do you and let others do them. if you don't believe in Vampyres thats fine and your right, but don't try and push your views on others by putting some one down. and yes I have seen doms do it as well.l
Incidentally, being presented with an opposing opinion which is supported by evidence is not flaming. If people stay away because they do not care to openly discuss on a forum the who, what, when, where and whys of belief, then a forum is likely not the right place for them anyway because that is the nature of a forum. Such positions are likely to fare better in journal entries or in private chats where no risk of being challenged exists. The forum will be just fine without such folk.
One more time, it is NOT an attack or flaming when you are disagreed with and those who disagree support why. That is allowed and even encouraged in forums where good discussion/debate may occur.
Perhaps a level or two might help.
However, in most of the threads I have witnessed that degraded into uselessness, I feel that the root of the problem was challenging beliefs. A belief needs no supporting evidence. Therein lies the problem in debating the subject. Both sides need to understand something in the other side. One side needs to see that no amount of evidence to the contrary will change their belief. Similarly, the other side needs to understand that they won't be able to make someone else believe the same things they do and that an alternate rationale for why or how something occurred is not a personal attack.
Maybe we can make a help page on how to discuss or debate subject matter and make it required reading as a levy for the ability to post?
And I further disagree that debate does not change beliefs. If that is so, it is the fault of the participant, not the system/forum. I have been on the side of debating something from a purely emotional stand. The person I was debating offered better evidence than I held. He was rational and began to make sense to me. It became a personal challenge to test what he said.
In that case, I changed my position in favor of the better one presented. That is the open door that maturity allows you to have.
Perhaps what we need is a little clarity here. Let's define faith. People of faith often shrink away from this, but truth is our friend so stay with me: Faith is quite simply a word for that which cannot be proven. That applies to anything you have faith in, from the big to the small.
If you argue from a position of faith, you must at least recognize what your position is, rather than becoming offended by evidence to the contrary. ALL faith is personal truth. If you believe you will succeed in proving it, you are partaking in a fool's folly. EVERYONE has levels of faith...they just don't necessarily debate it as fact. Believe in a good luck charm, vampires, God, and the love of your life. State your belief if you choose...defend it if you wish. Just recognize that a forum is for public conversation and debate with rules in place to keep the peace.
The forum is neither a tea party nor a boxing ring...but when someone attempts to persuade you to another point of view, or simply wants you to recognize that another point of view exists...don't think yourself attacked or flamed. Consider the other side and respond maturely or remove yourself from the discussion. THAT is how we will have a good and successful forum.
Joli~
You really have set the standard.
There are very few staff members that would recognize the qualities that would make a good debate, especially cupped with what their interpretation of faith may be.
Let me make this clear, I am not bashing the staff when I say this, I would add that very few people would recognise this trait, me included. As I said, a very high standard.
You have used a very important word here, 'maturity', I haven't seen a particularly good example of that in most threads but I have recognised the need to be mature which is a little different, but it does give rise to hope.
It's my opinion that the more simplistic a thread is with the publisher being concise, can lead to a good fun thread developing into a good debate if given the right amount of leeway. Too often I've seen threads close and asked myself 'why'?!!
Quite often I see a thread go off direction but that doesn't mean it has necessarily gone off topic, it just hasn't gone the way the publisher had planned.
I am happy to see common sense exercised on some occasions and descretion and leeway are abound.
Thank-you Joli. You have stated that precisely how I intended. In retrospect, instead of belief, I should have used faith. Very well said.
Personally, I tend to enjoy it when a thread starts in one direction then takes off in another direction. Sometimes, it even comes back to the original path. That's really exciting!
La6Muerte66 also makes a valid point in that no matter what measures are in place to try to ensure there is a fantastic forum, there will always be people who choose to ignore or circumvent those measures.
A question to the Administration: When things go awry in a thread is any constructive criticism sent to a member specifically?
I realize that time is precious and that you are donating yours to the forum and I know that there are guidelines in the manual and usually a comment when a thread is closed. However, with several or many, members posting in a thread it may be difficult to sort exactly what went wrong. Maybe pointing at someone and declaring a foul would shake things up a little. Personally, if I step out of bounds, I want someone to tell me directly that I have done so. Publicly or privately would be fine. I could understand how instead of a vague comment when a thread is closed, a comment directed at one or more people might put a few noses out of joint. But, perhaps it is just the thing to sort some of the problems we have been discussing?
Cartomancer Arch Sire (194) Posts: 1,252 Honor: 91,862 [ Give / Take ] |
We should never leave a vague comment in closing. In thread closures, it should be clear as to why. This isn't always going to happen but it is the way it should be.
If you are unclear, feel free to message the staff member that closed it- but please be tactful. All staff members are advised to be tactful towards you as well, and if it doesn't happen that way, forward it on to an upper Admin.
Sevenn brings up the best point here and that is: making this forum a good one is totally up to all of you that post. You don't like what you see available here? Make new threads. And as Meeper said, it's all going to be subjective with what's 'good'.
A couple years ago I held a competition for interesting threads. STABB666 and pookachu won the contest, then I was slammed for picking people I liked, nothing more. lol Whadya do? Just make threads you want to see if you don't like what's available.
It doesn't...... but it does give us a prime example of what I spoke of earlier........ which is why I chose to leave the post..... it makes a valid point.... although totally not relevant.... in a way it is because it shows how the forums end up going astray and what causes the heated arguments that we dominars see on a daily basis......
MidnightSong your input is appreciated, but explain to us a bit more on how this is relevant..... people are always going to want to back up their opinions if they believe strongly of them...... and others are always going to challenge those opinions if they do not..... it is part of what makes conversations and friendly debates when done with respect and politeness for fellow members.
It is not too much to ask that a statement be backed up by evidence. It is the very heart of intellectual debate. You are free to say whatever you want, but that also means someone else is free to disagree, and if they present evidence to the contrary, or ask that you present evidence to back up what you stated, then it is up to you to either find and present evidence, or accept that your statement is baseless and invalid. There is nothing intellectual about everyone just shouting what they want and being left alone about it. If you present your ideas to the public, there are bound to be people who agree, and those who disagree. What separates a valid assertion from an invalid one is the presence of evidence. If there is no evidence to back up your assertion, or even worse, if the evidence presented actually disagrees with your assertion, then it is demonstrably false. It is not our problem if you still refuse to either agree with the evidence or present your own.
Have you ever considered that they hammer for evidence because they themselves would perhaps like to believe what it is you believe? Some people are believe by faith, others are see it to believe it..... No one should be expected to change the way they are to fit the comfort of others..... HOWEVER everyone should and is expected to be respectful to one another and their opinions. Forums are meant for knowledge and everyone learns in different ways.... some are visual, some are mental, and some are just a sponge that picks it all up and it sticks within them.....
Asking for proof of something if that is the way an individual works is not a bad thing......
Asking is harmless, hammering is another thing, and I will not associate with those wh hammer me for proof. I also do not appreciate private messages sent to me regarding my words in a forum, if one does not wish for everyone to be involved in the current conversation, then they have no rite to send me a message arguing the point even further. I am a woman of belief and spirituality, and I feel that people should not have to prove themselves, if you dont believe me, then that is your problem, suck it up princess because thats the way nature rolls with me. Its obvious that my point is only my personal feelings and I do not wish to debate it any furthe, to each his own, and if this is how all yall feel about it, then so be it, but dont ask me to back my statements, because I will refuse to do so unless I feel the need to share something with everyone.
Truth be told, I would love to believe in the supernatural. I really would. I even used to believe in it. The problem I find with not presenting evidence is that without it, you're left with no basis for determining what is true and what is false. Without a basis for comparison, are you even learning? Again, without evidence, a person can make the most ridiculous claims and someone is actually bound to believe it. People are impressionable. Without the ability to test, question, or challenge someone else, there's no way to weed out that which is false so that we can actually learn the truth. So again, it's not about just needing evidence for every little thing. It's about people making well-thought-out statements that they can actually defend, rather than stating a personal opinion that may or may not actually be valid in the first place. It encourages others to learn, and it shows why people shouldn't just believe everything they're told.
People take things to messages out of respect for the forums.... that is a good practice.... if you tell them you wish to discuss an issue no more and they continue there is a wonderful thing called an iggy button...... its simple to use...
All that said, if you don't want to continue a point you've made once you've made it in the forums then don't... simply don't respond further.... its quite simple, but there are many members and each and everyone of us function differently... to ask someone to change how they work and what makes them tick is the same as asking you to not believe the way you are.... same principle really.
but its also a problem with people stating long drawn out statements, that may just be their own belief, their own personal belief, and I am sorry, but its just heartbreaking when you sit there and tell someone that there statement is false and useless information, if its their belief, then leave it alone, and dont hammer them for something that comes from their heart
What most people believe in comes souly(if that's how it goes) from there faith. Who are we to sit there and tell someone there faith is wrong, even if, in our own hearts we know its wrong. Who really knows, who really can say they have seen, the god, a god, the great mother, a goddess, the devil, no one really, we will never know, not until we are dead and are at "the gate".
Faith is a wonder's thing, not to be taken lightly, we believe what we have faith in, who knows We Could be the wrong ones in this issue, like I said never know.
Now on to the forums, yes there are some really great ones, and some totally stupid ones. It has its ups and down, I have posted a few that have been a great hit, right now I'm looking in to posting another. But you can not rush things like this now can you? You just have to sit and wait it out. And when did posting not be part of lvling?
I was asking for advise, coming from more personal experienes hun, which does not carry very much evidence, but their own words.....who is going to sit down and try to "contact the spirits" and record it thinking that they might need evidence because something might happen and people are going to want that proof.....
blegh this is oof topic tremendously, I apologize
It would have been nice to specify that then, rather than just getting upset that we misunderstood your original intention.
It has also been demonstrated why personal experience is far from reliable, but this is a bit off topic, I agree.
Ok, so here it is..... you both have valid opinions and neither of them are wrong, but now it is starting to sound argumentative in a more personal way..... Please tone it down a bit so we don't have an outburst in here.....
I will admit that I agree that no one should tell another they are wrong for their opinion just because they have a different look...... stating you disagree is one thing but telling someone they are wrong isn't fair I can see how that bit becomes frustrating..... but the thing we all need remember is this.......
EVERYONE is entitled to an opinion, and everyone is entitled to disagree with anothers opinions...... In a perfect World or as I refer to it a Walgreen's World, people would do this with tact and respect........ BUT this isn't a perfect world and not everyone is going to get on well.
Here's the best solution for this..... if you are in a thread and it starts to upset you... walk away...... let the debate roll without you and walk on.... there will never be a thread where EVERYONE agrees 100% on something......
I could make a thread that said the sky is blue, and someone would argue no its turquoise..... It;s all in the eye of the beholder and there are millions of different perspectives...... Overall, I think the forums would do better with that wonderful word used earlier..... Maturity. That is something only each and everyone of us can individually work on to make happen.....
I think that just about sums it up, really. I think that this thread, overall, has hit the nail square on the head. I feel ready to venture out and apply little bits of everything and a bunch of a few bits. I do hope that his thread remains visible for a long time because I intend to revisit it often. Every bit of it from start to here has been brilliant!
So back on topic ... lol
I notice a lot of members use the cut and paste method when strengthening an argument. They copy, word for word from various web sites. Most times (if it's not obvious) they do give credit to the site but I would like to see these done away with unless it's absolutely necessary. It creates clutter and the thread can become long winded. Just the link will do along with your summary of the point you are expressing.
I too have been guilty of expressing myself this way in the past, but as it's been said here already, those were the days when you needed to post to advance.
This is only my opinion :-)
I'm finding what I would be tempted to classify as misconceptions on several levels. I'll attempt to present them as briefly as reasonably possible, though brevity is not a skill at which I'm at all accomplished.
Beliefs, Opinions & Demonstrable Realities
Some seem to feel that beliefs, opinions and demonstrable realities are of equal merit. While I find it likely that such a suggestion might be offered primarily in the name of diplomacy and tact, I think it not inappropriate to point out that there is a vast difference between them. If someone just wants to present their beliefs and doesn't want to discuss them or support them, then their journal is a more appropriate choice than the forum. The forum allows for more open and full-bodied discussion, including supported disagreement.
If one person believes that the moon is made of cheese and another points out that rocks from the moon have been analyzed and are inconsistent with the composition of cheese, the two sides are not equally valid. Evidence counts.
Respect
Respect isn't automatic. Should we provide equal respect to the belief that all men are created equal and the belief that taller men are more worthy of governing than are shorter men?
In every discussion there will be concepts offered which hold greater validity than other concepts offered. That's simply the reality. Those who demonstrate greater validity through evidence garner more respect for their positions than those who can only offer an unsupported belief. No one is attempting to, or could, force anyone to believe other than what they find most compelling or most desirable. It's not about forcing others into one belief or another, it's about demonstrating greater foundational support for one belief over another or (as Joli suggested), recognizing that your belief is devoid of support or perhaps simply less fully supported than other beliefs. I'm not sure where people get the idea that anyone is trying to, or could possibly, "force" anyone into adopting a belief they see as having no merit. But beliefs of unequal support/credibility do not warrant equal respect.
To perhaps a lesser degree, the same applies to the people behind the assertions. If a particular poster tends to present assertions which are clearly contrary to evidence, becomes insulting and abrasive when the lack of validity to their assertions is demonstrated, and leaves in a huff when they realize their beliefs are less well supported; they do not earn, nor should they be offered exactly the same degree of respect as one who enters well prepared for discussion, keeps their posts directed to the topic(s) at hand and not toward other posters and who does present support for their assertions.
Respect is something earned, not something granted equally and automatically. That said, there is a difference between showing respect where respect is earned, and showing disrespect where respect has not been earned. If another poster has earned no respect for their position, it does not suggest a need or propriety to an open showing of disrespect. It should simply be understood that the respect offered anyone or any concept should be based upon the merits presented and not upon any assertion of an automatic and/or equal standard of respect. For example; the person who insists, without any offer of support, that dust mites are powering the galaxy has not garnered for themselves, or their assertion, the same level of respect as one who offers evidence showing that dust mites ingest dust.
Discussion vs. Argument
Sometimes this is a rather fine line. More often, the problem is simply that people become very emotional when they begin to see that they're less capable of offering support for their beliefs than are others in supporting theirs. I see nothing wrong with a heated debate. It drives (or should drive), all sides to research their positions and attempt to present knowledgeable responses to challenges offered to their positions. The key (again, as Joli already stated), is to be mature enough to take a little personal time-out when you recognize that your emotions are over-running your ability to control your behavior.
Only if people cease to address the topic and instead begin to sling insults toward other posters does the discussion lose all potential for productivity. And in the many online debates in which I've been involved, this is nearly always initiated by those who find themselves less able to support their assertions through evidence, and are attempting to do so purely via pleas to emotion.
Hammering people for "proof" vs. asking for evidence
If one person makes an assertion and another presents evidence contrary to that assertion, the one making the assertion should have every expectation that nothing else they offer will mean anything of value without some level of credible support. That's simply the nature of any intellectual discourse. If people are unhappy with such a reality, then the forum is likely a poor choice for their participation.
I must suggest that it is unreasonable that one should expect the assertion that elephants can fly, to be held on equal ground with the evidenced demonstration of an elephant's lack of aerodynamics along with evidence showing an insufficient ability to produce the necessary thrust-to-weight ratio. The two simply do not contain equal merit and any suggestion that they should be treated as though they do is a call for pure intellectual dishonesty.
The Value of Evidence
Evidence is the standard and means by which we understand our reality. It is how we know a glass contains liquid rather than being empty. It's how we recognize when we are ill. It's how we differentiate night from day. It's how we tell the difference between someone of harmful intent and someone of benevolent intent. Evidence is how we know when to put gas in our car, air in our tires, food in our bellies and time into our friends. Evidence is the means by which we know how to interact with our world. It's how we know to step onto an elevator but not into an empty elevator shaft. It's how we know when the fruit we bought is no longer suitable to eat. It is not just an acceptable standard, but the very standard by which we measure every interaction with our world.
The only time we see anyone objecting to a standard of evidence is when the evidence is shown not to support their adopted beliefs. When the evidence supports their beliefs, we can almost always find the very same people who insist that evidence is an unnecessary or erroneous standard, boldly presenting the evidence which supports their stance. Only when the evidence fails to support their stance do they then turn to a tactic of attempting to suggest that evidence is less than the most important aspect of any evaluative practice.
Evidence is always key.
To the original post......
What do you feel is crap?
I saw at one time that some people would repeat threads.
A. because they didnt see that it was already a post or B. They didnt get the answer they seek.
IMO there is nothing a Dominar can do because the threads are here for the users. They do the best they can to monitor when things get "out of control" so they are doing their part.
Unfourtunately you cannot silence a persons freedom of speech, no matter how ignorant or hateful they may be at times (no specific example just stating a point)
So if its something you dont like, you dont have to respond. Make a better thread if you feel that the topics have gone to s*@t.
Beastt17, I am not a-scared of you! You say evidence is always the key. And by this, I assume from reading your very well-written arguments and posts, that you generally tend to mean empirical, reasoned and provable evidence. Rational argument, as it were. Now, we have had this exchange before, in brief. The scientist will often find themselves at odds with the social scientist, but I have never expressed at length the causes for which the statement “evidence wins” is in itself, irrational.
First, we start with the basic proposition of atomism that each of us experiences our own state of consciousness to which only we are privileged. Consequently, a wall of privacy ultimately divides us from one another, making pure understanding of another impossible. Moreover, each of us is a unique person who contains within ourselves the power to direct action based on individualized interpretation and perception of belief, standards, norms and desires. Once again, this removes us from a pure state of understanding each other.
Can we assume others are rational? Let’s assume, according to your many postings that actions or beliefs require reason-explanations. Is it true that reason-explanations presuppose that agents are rational? Begin by noticing that a reason-explanation seeks to pick out the reason which actually evoked the action or belief rather than picking out reasons which merely accompanied it or were simply compatible with it. By the very definition of rationalism: all actions are rational. By this standard irrational thoughts, beliefs, and actions are only a sub-class of rational ones.
*Let it be the case that X
*But X iff a (where a is an action or belief)
*Therefore, let it be the case that not –a.
Here, in performing the act not-a the agent acts intentionally on the basis of a practical reasoning process; but since the process itself is illogical (in the sense that that the premise does not warrant the conclusion) the act is, in fact, irrational.
It is a mistake to conclude that there are not important differences between actions performed or beliefs expressed as the result of a rational versus an irrational thought process.
A commitment to explaining intentional actions or beliefs by giving reasons for them does NOT require that we believe that all actions or beliefs are rational at some level and that anyone not on that level is in err. Intentional activity and “correct” belief is not restricted to the domain of the rational. Intelligibility is neither a fixed nor universal concept. What constitutes intelligibility varies wildly depending on the particular being, species, action, or belief being investigated. Because it is easily shown that rationalism and hence, evidence is subject to the interpretation of the beholder, the question then becomes: are you able to comprehend others on their terms?
Am I off topic, yes I am. Sorry moderators. I'm zipping it.
Sevenn, while I agree with much of what you said, I think you're missing the purpose behind asking for evidence in the first place. I can't pretend to speak for anyone else, but I don't ask for evidence because it is the be-all, end-all for everything, and can always lead to absolute truths. I ask for evidence because it is the only means we have for objective comparison.
Personal experience, while powerful to the individual, is not a strong basis for an argument, because as we've already seen, our perceptions are painfully flawed. We each perceive the world differently, based on our brain chemistry (that's essentially what it boils down to). Without being able to purely understand each other, the only means for reaching a rational agreement is evidence that is objective and testable. It may be up to interpretation of the beholder, but the beauty of empirical evidence is that it can be tested by multiple individuals, effectively eliminating personal bias.
We WILL be off-topic if I answer your post on merits, which actually would be fun and a great subject for another thread. Not that I particularly disagree with most of what you said...and can certainly understand where you are coming from.
For the purposes of this thread, however, I think I am meaning to express that particularly on a site such as this, or the cluster of dark network sites, perhaps suspension of disbelief needs to be exercised occasionally if for no other reason than to make the forum a comfortable place for everyone. I am not suggesting that inane ranting always be excused and just taken with a grain of salt. I think intelligent conversation about ...hmmm..paranormal concepts is very interesting to read. However, sometimes people just can't articulate why they believe as they do, but I don't think that makes an opinion any less valid.
There used to be a member here called 'vampirepariah'. He was always castigated and called-out in these forums. His opinions were OUT THERE by most normative standards, but you know I really enjoyed reading his posts if for nothing else, a very, very different way of looking at things.
I think the beauty of this forum is the diversity of its membership. A person's opinions rarely offend me. If I don't like the expression, I move on, and I think that a call for open expression rather than narrowing the parameters of how we are allowed to express ourselves here will create a more dynamic forum.
If people are shamed into thinking they are "less than" for not always being able to cite a book, or research, or evidence just because they want to express an opinion about something, they are less likely to post. Quickly, a forum like this devolves into a repetitive ass-kissing contest because people would rather not post than be constantly confronted.
I understand the idea of asking "why do you think this?" but I also recognize that a person has a right to NOT have to defend their beliefs in a public forum.
Dave (Vampariah) is rather active on another forum I frequent. He openly admits that half the time his posts are deliberately wrong. But that's hardly a subject for this discussion. lol.
I agree that not everyone's beliefs should be shot down, which is why I personally don't question absolutely everyone's statements. It's usually only the fringe-type statements (even by paranormal standards) that I ask for evidence to support, or just flat-out refute. To just blatantly hammer everyone all the time would be oppressive and limiting. However, it has to be done at least sometimes. I'd personally like to see an improvement in the quality of statements made by certain members. Even if there isn't evidence presented, there have been a number of involved and intellectual debates on a number of topics based on a different opinion of the topic itself. Philosophical debates are fun as well, but there are bound to be flat-out scientific debates, and without evidence, there is no science.
DarkTraveler -
There is no "Freedom of Speech" here. This is Cancer's site and we follow his rules.
Daniel -
That wouldn't happen to be the same Vamp as on GG, would it?
This thread has been hi-jacked .. I think a 'Sevenn Appreciation Society' may be in order. lol
It's great to see ... 'fun' being had in a public forum. But isn't that what it should be, even for the staff.
The ability to smile when your argument has been shot to bits!!
yet alot of people come into the thread to understand many points on myths, tales ond even certain logic given.
yet it seems like alot have been ran off by posts that attack alot.
I enjoy some of the topics covered untill it becomes a , well a....fighting ring between believers and non. I think we must understand that we all have opinions. wether its right or wrong, we should stay with the post and not bash individuals, religionsn or thought.
it is not for me to make others believe or not, but to post to make them see another point of view in which they may have not realized.
Sevenn Well said!!!!! and mbk you know it's funny you always say that, but what you forget is that it is the members that make the site and the paying members that keep the site going like it or not THAT IS THE TRUTH!
with out the members there would be no VR!
Its the members that make the site what it is FLAT OUT!
Noctem, you're missing the point. Freedom of Speech has limits, and if they violate Cancer's rules, then it doesn't matter who you are. The rules will be enforced.
Cartomancer Arch Sire (194) Posts: 1,252 Honor: 91,862 [ Give / Take ] |
Ryu: Keep in mind, those members still have boundaries set by Cancer, and carried out by his staff. With zero rules period and no one doing any policing, then too, we wouldn't have anything here. And that's a fact rather people want to accept it or not.
And yes LaMuerte- Freedom of Speech doesn't even apply here, that's merely the US Constitution- and we're GLOBAL, on the internet, in someone's private 'house' (Cancer). When we go in that house, we live by his rules, if we can't, we should hit the road.
''Sevenn Well said!!!!! and mbk you know it's funny you always say that, but what you forget is that it is the members that make the site and the paying members that keep the site going like it or not THAT IS THE TRUTH!
with out the members there would be no VR!
Its the members that make the site what it is FLAT OUT!''
There was really no point to that post. Freedom of Speech not applying to Vampire Rave and paying members have nothing in common. Paying members don't get special privileges or excuses; they're like anyone else.
as a paying customer I do have rights I am paying for what I get and when I am not getting what I am paying for well there are ways to get money back and things set right.
I know the rules and do my best to uphold them and yes I can agree with that for the most part. because when one from the community comes to VA there are rules that will be enforced so I understand.. I am not going to get into that but not saying all admin but some need to word things better when going about enforcing the rules.
Being flat out disrespectful in my eyes is unbecoming of one in power.....
Unfortunately, Ryu, there is nothing you can do if you feel an admin is disrespectful or "unbecoming of one in power." Paying or not, you have no special power on this site, nor do I. If you think someone has abused their power, by all means, send Cancer a message. See how well that goes over.
As far as I am concerned there is no difference in premium memebers or the free ones. we must all obey the rules that we signed in here as. no exceptions to this. Freedom of speech is limited, no question because of many topics that seem to heat up the posts and cause bad tempers.
Cartomancer Arch Sire (194) Posts: 1,252 Honor: 91,862 [ Give / Take ] |
Ryu: Premium members have no more rights than free members. You are merely paying for options that apply to your account, not an extra speaking voice, or any special rights. That needs to be clear.
There's much you don't see or know about the Administration here- but if something out of line is happening, Cancer doesn't let it slide. Let me break down like this... think of it as an enclave where the primogen get their own private smack down. We're all still growing, and as time passes by and things are noticed amongst the staff that isn't so charming, they are pulled to the side just as any member and told to get their pants back up over their asses. If you know what I'm sayin'. This is always going to be private and away from the mass membership, it has to be.
you know i read the status system again and it says that the forum posts are still 10 percent of your rating. Now did they do away with it or do they still count
No, they still don't count. Database submissions still are the new way to level instead of posting in the forum.
Cartomancer Arch Sire (194) Posts: 1,252 Honor: 91,862 [ Give / Take ] |
That page just hasn't been updated yet. The database submission being incorporated to the status system is new and there's still little spots here and there that need to be updated.
Posting here no longer gives you points towards leveling.
I hope this is of help.
As some one who joined the Rave almost three years ago I have also noticed a slump in the forums...
I lurk a lot, most of the time I spend is reading journals logged in or not logged in.
I feel I know a lot of you where as you know nothing of me....my fault I know!
I was always worried about posting here because of being slated for what I stood for. As my house master Billy would also tell you I'm also not active in the house as much as I should be because of this and drama.
Xzavier is right, there should be stricter rules....
Lordofnoctemaeternus
So right, even some of the people here posting have in my truth appeared condescending. I however know that it is not there intention, where as others may not....that's what breeds the drama!
Joli
Yes, all truth is personal truth and we all need to remember this.
Sevenn
Yes you are right.
It is because some here on the rave are unable to articulate and hold there point of view that they appear to be bashed by others who have never heard of the expression 'layman terms' *smiles*. The problem as with all internet sites as we should all now be aware is etiquette!
Bloodlife
I have spoken about this with you before as well as NightGame.....By the way, great post.
just my dos centavos, but id rather the threads were not closed by the will of a single dom. i think rather that it should take at least 3 doms to close a thread. while some of the topics are not as good as others (at least to me) i think that what i may think of as crap, someone else might get alot out of.
some of the topics may have been covered extensively, but there are always new people coming on board. there will be repeats when that happens.
over all, seems like the topics should be the will of the people, or what interests the people that are using the forum.
just my thoughts, your milage may vary.
~Wolf~
Your first point is good, LordWolf, but there aren't always 3+ dominars online at any given time. If a thread looks as if it's getting out of hand, it's probably best if it is closed immediately. If someone thinks it was closed unfairly, they always have the option of asking for it to be reopened, or at least asking why it was closed (if a reason wasn't provided). The admins have enough on their hands without requiring more regulation, in my opinion.
'over all, seems like the topics should be the will of the people, or what interests the people that are using the forum.
just my thoughts, your milage may vary.'
The thing is, people don't post what they're interested in learning; People don't look for new topics to make but just post the same old things they've seen posted in the past, which have been ridden to death.
Cartomancer Arch Sire (194) Posts: 1,252 Honor: 91,862 [ Give / Take ] |
Cancer's will is to have a varied group on the staff, and that one Dominar can make a solid decision in closing without running to find others that will agree. Your idea I am afraid would make for a pretty unkempt forum. Nothing would ever get done.
Adding to what imagesinwords said, if two or more Dominars had to agree on a thread to close it would more than likely result in strife among the Dominars with the difference in opinion, and that would not be very good for the others at all.
I often puzzle at the level of fear presented when it comes to the idea that a thread might get "out of hand". Let's think about it for a moment; what might happen? Someone will flame someone else and suffer the consequences? Someone will complain that their feelings were hurt?
It's words -- just text on a screen. It doesn't make anyone bleed. It doesn't threaten lives. It doesn't rob anyone of real property, and what's more, it's usually just opinions.
I realize this site extends well beyond the boundaries of the U.S., but as someone who lives in the U.S. and has spent, perhaps more than the average amount of time reading the thoughts, quotes and standards of the founding fathers, I note that the founding fathers seemed to have held to standards of real harm. That doesn't include hurt feelings, being offended, being politically incorrect or providing support for an assertion. All of those things are really fairly harmless. That doesn't mean there is absolutely zero potential for some form of harm, but as far as real, direct harm, the potential is very nearly zero.
When did the world become so completely petrified that someone might be allowed to express an opinion or worse yet, an unpopular opinion? When did we gain the right to present unsupportable beliefs and then tell those who can support beliefs to the contrary, that because they're out-numbered, they should keep their evidence to themselves? When did we decide that words and ideas were something to be chained, filtered, regulated, metered, weighed, scrutinized, categorized, enforced, banned, hidden, out-lawed, censored, washed, clipped, truncated, euphemized, castrated and prohibited?
What is this incessant fear of words and ideas? It's the end of potential to accept new ideas, the end of opportunity to be introduced to new ideas and to allow critical thought into areas where it has become popular to label anything as unsuitable. The competition displayed in pursuit of political correctness is something I find to be indicative of the need for caution. What does it mean to be "politically correct"? Does it mean we're being correct? Well, not really. If that's what it meant, we could just call it "correct". So apparently, it means something other than actually being correct. It means adhering to standards which we, as individuals, didn't develop, don't necessarily agree with, and might actually find harmful to society. But most will adopt them simply because they're popular and never give even a minute's consideration for whether or not these standards hold true merit.
The admins have no choice. They've agreed to the enforce the same standards the rest of us agreed to accept. So this should in no way be seen to be aimed at them. This is presented more for the consideration of the general membership. We shouldn't be afraid of contrary ideas. We shouldn't attempt to shut people up, just because we disagree with them. When that becomes the standard, it's often only a matter of time before the former majority finds itself of the minority and they end up being the ones being silenced simply for the lack of popularity behind their ideas.
For those old enough to remember JFK, there is some wisdom to be found in his urging that we encourage controversial books and controversial ideas. For that is from where true understanding often emerges. Around 400-years ago a man had an idea which many found not just preposterous and unpopular, but even dangerous and harmful. Today most of us are quick to remember his name -- Galileo. But in his time he was seen as a wicked man of distorted views and harmful ideas. So damaging did the populous rate his ideas that they were hidden away from the masses and he was forced to publicly denounce them. His ideas were censored away and he was placed under house-arrest where he died 9-years later. This is of course, one example of many which can be presented. But it is hopefully sufficient to demonstrate the impropriety of allowing ourselves to become fearful of new ideas, evidenced beliefs, words and unpopular concepts.
Think about it for a moment. What if these ideas had never escaped the bounds of social acceptability? We'd still have a rather backward view of the solar system which would negate our every attempt to breech the boundaries of space. Modern satellites would be thought impossible. There go your cell phones, trans-oceanic phone calls, GPS systems, advanced and accurate weapons systems, commercial navigation systems and a host of other technologies which are now commonly accepted and at the heart of our modern conveniences.
Don't be so quick to find fear. You needn't agree with ideas when they seem bizarre, unpopular or contrary to your own. But don't fear them. Allow them to thrive. If they hold no merit, it's unlikely they will ever displace ideas which do hold merit. But do provide them the chance to show any merit they may hold and allow yourself the opportunity to fairly assess them before attempting to eradicate them, simply because you don't like them.
We can censor the next Galileo and deprive ourselves of the advancements which might spring from what seems a bizarre, unpopular, non-traditional or frightening idea, or we can embrace them, assess them fully and carefully, and enjoy the accelerated advancement to the next levels in technology and the enhanced understanding of our reality.
Think just for a moment; what if Galileo's ideas had been accepted 100-years earlier than they were? What if we hadn't attempted to shun, stifle and mute the ideas of Giordano Bruno or Charles Darwin? How much farther might we have advanced by this point? A cure for cancer? Interstellar travel? Who knows? It's just possible. But it's only possible if we're cautious not to rob ourselves of new knowledge, through our fears, traditions, unevidenced-beliefs and standards of political correctness.
Censorship never advances anyone or anything, except for propaganda which could not survive without it. Don't believe me, ask Hitler. He was a staunch supporter and promoter of censorship. Can we learn from his example? Or will we doom ourselves to repeat his atrocities while patting ourselves on the back for being rank-and-file conformists, politically correct, and quick to silence anyone who steps out of our line?
Beast~
To say that it’s only words on a screen is one thing but when you are part of an online community, that’s all any of us have. It’s how we convey thoughts, opinions and feelings. Sure, no blood is spilt but feelings still get hurt. The difference is, are these feelings deliberately hurt?!!
I don’t think that for the majority that post it’s done on purpose, they are merely expressing what they seem to be right, it’s their opinion, their belief. No two people are the same and whereas one person may get upset another may just giggle.
Also there is a factor of people’s moods.
My last post was deleted by a member of staff. I posted something that was said when I was peeved and it was ‘deliberate’. It was my mood at the time, and not necessarily from what has been said here. However, now I’ve calmed down I appreciate the fact that I don’t have to see my post that made an ass of me.
VR is a very wide and diverse community drama can and will erupt over the smallest of things. It's up to the individuals to rise above it. It's only drama if you let it be drama.
Bloodlife,
Certainly in an online community we have little other than our words with which to present our ideas and indeed, ourselves. In any situation it is primarily our means and methods of communication which tell others what they know of us. But that's somewhat different than being forced into presenting something which is other than who/what we are, for the pleasure of those who have already decided what should be seen as appropriate and what should be seen as less than appropriate.
I'm often misjudged and misunderstood because I stand by my beliefs and the support which I offer for those beliefs. Unfortunately, it is often the case that the more someone disagrees, yet can't present a meritorious counter-argument, the more they will dislike me, simply because they wish my arguments were less substantial, thereby providing them with greater reason to dismiss them. Some seem to see that as my failure. Admittedly, sometimes making my point becomes primary over seeking words which convey tact and diplomacy but I attempt always to remain civil. But what does it say of anyone when they choose to like you only for their ability to agree with you or when they choose to dislike anyone, simply because that person presents a well-founded and well-evidenced argument, which provides a conclusion which they find contrary to their desires?
Many hated Galileo. Many hated Bruno and many still hate Darwin. Should they have sought to hide their arguments from the world for fear that those who have difficulty separating their desires from realities, might displace their disappointment in reality, onto them in the form of distaste or hatred? Was it appropriate for the masses to attempt to silence Galileo, to burn Bruno at the stake, or to prohibit the spread of Darwin's work under penalty of law?
Like everyone else here I sometimes have my feelings hurt. I suspect it's because I tend to present my points with support and hold confidence in my evidence, that many see me as being somewhat unphased by the vitriol with which they respond. If only they could know how far such an assumption is from the truth. But should I present my beliefs as other than they are and hide my evidences for their sake? Should I be forced to do so?
As saddened as I am when I find those who have earned my respect suggesting that I soften my points or even back away from them, I cannot find it within myself to see it as appropriate to misrepresent or even under-represent that which conforms with the properties of reality as it has been observed and can be demonstrated.
At times I'm tempted to wonder if I offered respect pre-maturely when I see how quickly the unpopularity of a well-evidenced conclusion is spread to the one who presents the evidence and that conclusion. That too saddens me and even breaks my heart. But I cannot change reality and see it unfit to misrepresent the evidence or conclusions which it offers. I see it at least equally unfit for anyone to attempt to garner even greater control over what each of us may through our words and interaction.