00:13 Apr 09 2010
Times Read: 940
**This is kinda long but I REALLY want your opinions**
I've been having this conversation for the past two days. I thought the person I was talking to was intelligent but perhaps I was wrong. I'm not going to mention who it is but I'd like you all to read this and tell me which one of us is the rational person?
I'm sorry if some of it doesn't make sense. I tried very hard to keep him focused and answer my questions/counter-points directly but he kept ignoring them or trying to change the subject.
I'm not "compelled" to defend myself but the argument that only those who defend their points of view are the ones in the wrong..that's just retarded. All I did with my article is try to explain things, open peoples eyes and give *hope* to those going through a hard time.
When having a discussion one person takes a side and the other another side, they both defend/support their positions. That's called a debate.
______________________________________________________________________________________________
Xzavier: BTW, you were joking in your comment to my article right? lol I may have bad fashion sense (which I don't you're just straight) but I aint wrong! :P
Man: according to the church (rome) reguardless of the scandals and drama the church is involved in, that homosexuallity is a sin....im not saying its my belief but i believe that the church sees it that way and things have become to liberal in the spiritual awakening of humans...in a nutt shell people just want to cherry pick what they can and cannot do, doesnt work that way , it cant!.....it would be like saying its ok to kill a man if it was in the best interest of god....no matter what spin you put on it , deep down you know its wrong...unless you are a sociopath and in that case its ok lol
Me: Rome thinks the act is wrong but being gay isn't. And that was the whole point of my article, that the bible itself doesnt actually say anything about homosexuals and that it is indeed ok to be gay. And that many churches/denominations think it's ok.
How can you disagree w that? lol
Man: actually if you sin in your heart its the same as action in the churches eyes.....so if the act of homosexuallity is wrong which it does say in the bible then its pretty self explanitory....most people who are christians are luke warm anyways and only practice what they like about it ....its harder to actually live it day to day....think about it if it wasnt hard to live a strict way do you really think it would have any value?....i could go on and on but dont want to offend anyone, its a touchy subject with most .
Me: No you're right, if we "sin" in our hearts then it is a sin. But, just bc the church (Rome or otherwise) says something it doesn't actually make it right/wrong. All that matters is what Gods word says (aka the New Testament) and that doesn't say that actual homosexuals are sinful.
You should know better than to be afraid to offend me :P
Man: one could argue that it goes against the very biology/nature of our design and that if its not written its ok?......a thinking person with even a small amount of reason knows better, its funny when we want something bad enough how we restructure our moral compass to suit our conscience....but its the conscience that is talking to us to let us know, and to ignore it is just as bad as turning your back on god.....i know i sound like a bible beater but im really not , im just aware lol
Me: Ok you're gonna need to type a lil bit better for me to understand you lol.
Are you saying that you think being gay goes against nature? And that people like me are trying to "adjust" things to fit our own desires?
I just want to know what *you* actually think.
Or are you playing devils advocate in an attempt to get me to further defend my position and move from using faith to science?
Man: defense is only needed if you are guilty of something...i have certain views on the subject yes, but i dont want to give the wrong impression here.
Me: Just tell me what you actually believe. Are we not friends? That means that no matter what you think, we'll still be friends.
Man: i can disagree with you and still be your friend , hell ya cant have the exact same views as your friends , life would be so boring ....this does not in any way mean you are not my friend goofey lol
Me: Exactly.
I just want to know specifically what you disagree with me on and why.
Man:
how much of the churches history are you familiar with?
Me: A fair amount.
Man:
He sends me a very long article he copy/pasted from some place and all it does is repeate "scripture" (the same ones I talk about in my article) and then goes on to say that God made Adam & Eve not Adam & Steve and that every homosexual needs Jesus to be "cured".
Me: think I covered most of this this in my article.
A) Genesis has no more bearing on Christianity than does Mickey Mouse. Christianity starts with the book of Matthew onward. Genesis states that the universe was made in 6 days, it says the earth was covered by a flood and the rest of the Old Testament goes on to say that we should kill adulterers and beat our children.
B) Just because DNA evidence hasn't been found to support a "gay gene" as it were doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The Human genome is made up of approx.30,000 genes and some individual genes play a role in over 400 biological processes.
C) The whole gay/alcoholic argument is absurd. For one being a homosexual and having homosexual sex no more hurts the people involved than heterosexual sex. Drinking does. That argument is based on the presupposition the homosexuality is inherently wrong. It is not. Examples of it exist not just in humans but all across nature.
D) Diseases and being gay? Please. The only reason HIV spread in the homosexual community was because at the time it came on the scene gays weren't using condoms, there was little reason to. Add to it the months and years governments and institutions took to actually say it existed and you have the "gay plague". All leading populations for HIV transmission growth rates today are among heterosexuals. As for other diseases, there is zero evidence that a gay man is going to become infected more easily than a straight woman.
E) There may not be a gay gene but there is plenty of other evidence that supports "gay by birth".
F) Every verse in the Bible that talks about homosexual activities is not talking about gays. It's talking about rape. Every verse that's saying things like "leaving the natural use.." is talking about heteros having sex with a member of the same sex. The KJV of the Bible is riddled with translation errors and a simple check of the Greek (for the NT) you'll see that what KJV says isn't what was written.
G) In the beginning there were very few people, we needed to go forth and multiply, we don't today. Throughout history there seems to be a fairly stable % of homosexuals and the amount doesn't really risk population growth. The very fact that there does seem to be a stable percentage actually supports a biological foundation for homosexuality. All that matters is our soul right? Humans aren't only a body, we're spiritual beings. Our physical selves only serve to carry our brains around (the brain, that thing that gives us thought and soul). There isn't a male spirit and a female spirit, there's just energy. Even God is sexless in his true form, we just use the word "he" because our physical universe is made up by he's and she's..the he's being the more dominant of the two. If 2 souls love each other I kinda doubt it matters what equipment their bodies have. Yes men and women are complementary but thats because of breeding purposes. I don't want to have kids, I don't need a chick.
If 80% of the population was going around saying they're gay, ok there might be something to it but they're not. It's 3-7% and all we want is the same human rights as everyone else. SCIENCE says being gay isn't a disease, I'll stick with that because God just happens to be quiet on the matter.
That entire article was written with the idea that being gay is wrong from the very first word, it was more biased than Al Gores take on Global Warming. At least I provided actual facts and not just opinion in mine.
Man: ya take one part of the bible ya take the whole thing....cant cherry pick what you like.
Me: Exactly. So agains I ask, what do YOU believe? lol
Man: "That entire article was written with the idea that being gay is wrong from the very first word, it was more biased than Al Gores take on Global Warming. At least I provided actual facts and not just opinion in mine. "
stating that because they have not found a "gay gene" is not a fact nor is it based in any scientific method ive heard of, if thats the case an argument can be spun in so many ways morallity is no longer a human issue.
Me: No I was saying that I provided facts, as in the facts of the original language of the Bible. I can also provide facts for a biological foundation of homosexuality, just not DNA..which we can't do for a lot of things but no one doubts those aren't natural.
Man: i believe in a grand arcitect....nuff said.
Me: Blah, no I wanna know if you think being gay is ok or not and why?
Like you said we can still be friends, I just want to know.
Man: question...is it wrong to steal?
Me: Define steal... But generally yes it is.
Man: and just as its a choice to become a bank robber its a choice to be gay.
Me: No there isn't. For one who would want to choose to be gay? Pretty much no one. And secondly there IS scientific evidence supporting that being gay is not a choice but biology.
Heck even the Roman Catholic church said that being is not a matter of choice.
Man: if sins of the heart are just as bad as sins of action (deed) then it kind of boils down to choice (freewill)...are you saying being gay is beyond your freewill?
Me: Yes just like having blue eyes is beyond my freewill. It's up to me to decide to have sex but it's also up to a person to decide to play music, both actions are choice but neither choice is wrong, sinful or unnatural.
You have a choice to live and have sex with someone you're not married to. That sorta goes against the Bible explicitly and without translation error.
Man: in that case same excuse could be used for pedos.
Me: A pedo is someone who has sex with a child under the age of 13.
That is wrong because it hurts the kid. Being gay doesn't hurt anyone.
Man: hurts the soul.
Me: Um no it doesn't.
How would being gay hurt the soul?
Man: first thing is to admit its a sin, otherwise you just wont get it...its a lot like telling a drug addict they need help, they either listen to you and seek help or they remain in denial and die or end up in jail ect...if you consider christian morality subjective then its not worth trying to argue the point.
Me: You have yet to prove it's a sin. The Bible, as was written, doesn't mention a thing about homosexuals.
I'm an ordained minister remember? I graduated Liberty University heck.
You said you can't cherry pick the Bible right? Then you must believe that 1) you are living in sin, 2) it is ok to stone children, 3) the Earth is less than 10,000yrs old, etc
Man: yes i am, never said i was perfect or a bible beater either...just thought id enguage you in what ive learned and heard, cant say im better than you other than my fashion sense that is lol
Me: lol well at least you admit it :P
I'm just really interested in where it says being gay is a sin.
As for fashion sense..babe, you're delusional lmao
Man: wouldnt matter if i did show you where it said being homo is wrong in the bible you would just make an excuse like a drunk says i dont have a drinking problem lol
Me: Blah. If it's actually wrong, I wanna know. I am a Christian afterall and if the way I'm living my life is wrong I want to know about and work on making it better.
But you have to provide facts.
Man: •Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."1
•Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"
•1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
•Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."
Homosexuality is clearly condemned by the Bible. It goes against the created order of God. He created Adam and then made a woman. This is what God has ordained and it is what is right. Unlike other sins, homosexuality has a severe judgment administered by God Himself. This judgment is simple: They are given over to their passions. That means that their hearts are allowed to be hardened by their sins (Romans 1:18ff). As a result, they can no longer see the error of what they are doing. Without an awareness of their sinfulness, there will be no repentance and trusting in Jesus. Without Jesus, they will have no forgiveness. Without forgiveness, there is no salvation.
Me: First: 1 Cor 6:10, it does NOT say "homosexual" it says "abusers of themselves with mankind", aka prostitutes.
And the rest, I used facts to prove it's not gays at all.
The New Testament was written in Greek, yes? So read the ACTUAL text of the NT and you'll find the truth.
I proved the same for the OT verses. And I'll state again, if YOU believe that you can't pick what parts of the Bible you believe in and what parts you don't then you MUST believe it is ok to kill people like yourself and stone children.
_____________________________________________
This is the exact argument I had with my mom a while back. And it all comes down to the fact that you don't care what fact is, all you believe is what you've either been told or believe based on your own prejudice.
The indisputable facts is the Christian text do not condemn homosexuality and that in order to believe Lev. you must also believe it is ok to stone children and that eating pork is a sin.
You can believe whatever you want but I'll believe in the facts of Science and the facts of the Word of God, neither of which says being gay is wrong.
I don't understand how a person could look at proof and still think the Earth is flat. That's exactly what this is.
Man: like i said no such thing as a perfect translation.
Me: It was written in Greek, Greek hasn't changed since the time of the Bible. There is a perfect translation between Greek and English where these matters are concerned.
But I'm tired of talking to a brick wall that happens to be a bigoted hypocrite :P
Like you said we're still friends.
Man: no need for name calling here, see i told ya its a touchy subject...its my mistake for thinking a you could hold a conversation like an adult.
in certain south american and african languages there is no translation for "maybe" you either DO or you DO NOT do something....same goes for the bible you take it all or nothing, no grey areas no this and this but not that .
"You should know better than to be afraid to offend me :P"
i guess that is not the truth either, im sorry if i offended you...its why i dont like discussing this topic, no good can come from it.
Me: Dude, get over yourself.
I'm not offended. You equated homosexuality w pedophilia, you said it was like talking to an alcoholic or drug addict. I'm not allowed to describe you with words? Words that happen to be truth?
As for your South American languages with no translation, what does that have to do with anything? I'm not talking about them I'm talking about GREEK.
You're using belief to support and idea, I'm using facts. Facts = truth.
You also keep ignoring the fact that IF you take all the Bible, you must also think its ok to stone children. Do you believe that's ok or not? Do you take the book of Revelation literally? Monsters and all? Do you think the universe really is less than 10,000 years old?
Come on.
Like I said you can believe all you want but that doesn't change reality.
If a person can't alter their *opinions* or misunderstandings when confronted with evidence then they are closed minded and what they believe doesn't matter, it's worthless.
And by the way, I don't recall it saying in the Bible you either believe all of it or none of it.
Man: your denial not mine... im a bigit for expressing my knowledge on a subject and you obviously have emotional issues and cant think rationally nor can you hold a conversastion without allowing your said emotional issues to cloud your thinking then why should i continue?....seems to me its you who has the "god problem" and if you find yourself defending your point of view all the time then maybe your doing something wrong...ever think of that? people who live the truth dont have to ....and furthermore about you being a minister or chaplin or whatever the hell you think you are, big whoop! hell for 45 bucks i could be too and get a tax break.....i should have known better than to try and have a rational conversation with a looney christian who thinks he have have his cake and eat it too...no sir you are troubled and i no longer wish to talk with you about this subject untill you put your big boy pants on and can act like an adult.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
All I see is a guy who can't support his own argument with anything but repeating it over and over. He can't counter, he can't even answer each question I ask.
You know, I admit I may be wrong (something he doesn't even consider) but at least I can back up my beliefs with something more than "just because".
COMMENTS
-
BelovedxTwilight
18:09 Apr 28 2010
Seems like you're quite the popular person :-)