Lesson learned... again.
People don't throw away what they have and cherish unless they have something they believe is better.
How does it show thanks for having enough to eat to sit down and gorge until you're in pain and ready to bust? I've never really understood that. I would think if one really wanted to show appreciation for always having sufficient food, a day's fast would be more appropriate.
Of course it's a lot harder to market a day of fasting and make any money.
I think perhaps a day of fasting and quiet reflection is more fitting for me.
COMMENTS
You crack me up man....lol...seriously, enjoy your day whatever you decide to do.
That's one way to look at it... but I do agree, too many people go over-board with the meal for Thanksgiving...
I'm really not trying to be funny. I tend to think it's appropriate to think things through, rather than simply accepting them as tradition or thoughtless majority habit. It's simply a thought process. I think it ironic that people who consider gluttony to be a sin would also think that conspicuous and intentional gluttony would be a show of thanks.
What if we try applying that to being thankful for having enough energy to live the lifestyle we in developed nations enjoy? Would it be a proper gesture of thanks for everyone to gas up their vehicles and drive endless circles around the neighborhood, just to show that they can? Or is that more of a wasteful practice in the face of many peoples who can't afford enough energy to even stay warm?
Globally, 40,000 children starve to death every day, including today. I don't see it as a gesture of thanks to gorge ourselves when we tend to do that on a daily basis anyway. (Of course I'm speaking of those in the U.S. -- literally "the fattest nation in the world".) Is it a show of thanks to be conspicuously and intentionally wasteful of things for which others lack even to the point of dying? To give thanks, I'd prefer to be able to take my overflowing plate and pass it to someone who hasn't eaten this week.
Enjoy your Thanksgiving but perhaps we shouldn't be too quick to laugh at things just because they seem foreign or different. :-)
Well giving it's origination as the harvest feast and when it became a national holiday we were in the midst of a civil war. As time goes on all holidays change, Thanksgiving, Christmas, Halloween... If you think it's not right then celebrate the day how you see fit.
I do agree with you on the fasting part, perhaps for another holiday. But, since it is a day of thanks and harvest, eat up. We don't need to forget the poor and starving but we also don't need to feel guilty or act out of shame. The only reason to do that is if the person hasn't done enough in their eyes to help the downtrodden.
I know you did'nt intend to be funny, but for someone who is an athiest you came very close to sounding ' holier than thou '.....which I quite understand you did not intend.
It's a fairly common misconception to suggest that theists are more morally driven than atheists. The statistics suggest the opposite to be true. It's not a matter of being "holy". It's a matter of thinking things through for yourself, rather than accepting popular opinion as automatically correct.
There's probably a food bank near you that serves the poor. Ours received a lot of food from very giving people and one church serves and delivers hot Thanksgiving meals near us. They always need volunteers. I bet there are places like that near you. I hope that when you think things through, you also act on your conclusions...that's when real change happens. *hug* Love ya!
Is it possible that it's not my fault in some mysterious or puzzling way? Somehow it seems that it must be me. How could it not be? One has to apply logic and note the only common denominator.
COMMENTS
If in doubt you could always draw a chart or graph of some kind *smiles*. Spock found logic sometimes failed him...not often, just sometimes.
As I recall, Spock was always the one who chose to withdraw. Most certainly, I'm not Spock. Perhaps it would be much to my benefit if I were.
"The creature within me is gone. I am free of it, and the pain.
I am also quite blind. An equitable trade, Doctor.
Thank you."
- Spock
Yes, he was certainly polite *smiles*.
He was logical. Blind he could still function. Racked with pain he was incapacitated. Dwelling in constant pain sucks.
Sometimes life sucks. But there was that one day...
Why is it that I can legally purchase alcohol at 6:00AM on any day, Monday through Saturday, but on Sunday, I can't legally buy it until 10:00AM?
Why is it that in a country which is supposed to place individual rights as primary, most states have now prohibited same-sex marriage? Same-sex marriage infringes upon no one's rights. Prohibiting such marriage infringes upon everyone's rights.
Why is it that stem-cell research -- perhaps the most promising disease-curing research to come along in centuries -- has been stifled by government?
Why were 20-innocent people hanged in and around Salem in the 1690s?
Why were thousands of people tortured and killed during the Crusades and the Inquisition?
Why was it prohibited by law to teach evolution?
Why were 6-million people killed in an attempt to "cleanse" the human gene pool?
Why was it once strictly permissible to kill a native American but considered murder to kill a Caucasian living in America?
Why was it once considered kidnapping and murder to induct a Caucasian into involuntary servitude and beat him to death for failure to comply, but perfectly acceptable to do the same to a man of African descent?
Why have nearly 100,000 Iraqi nationals been killed on their home soil in the past 5-years?
Why were the Amalekites completely slaughtered including the children and infants?
Why were children and young virgins once tossed into the craters of active volcanoes?
Why have people been tied to stones and slowly cut apart, burned or had their hearts cut out while still beating?
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This is but a very tiny and short list. But the answer to each and every question, at it's most fundamental, is the same; adherence to unevidenced beliefs.
And still we hear people wondering why anyone would care what they believe. No one is attempting to force beliefs, we're only asking that people holding beliefs demonstrate a basis of support for those beliefs. But we still hear people insisting that certain beliefs shouldn't be open to discussion simply because someone has cared to label them "sacred".
The idea that any belief is "sacred" and therefore, exempt from rational and open discussion seems to have come from very ancient, primitive and superstitious times. It persisted through the Dark Ages when so many other absurd and ridiculous ideas and practices seemed to fizzle into non-existence. And it's still with us today. It's okay to label a belief "sacred" and discuss in favor of that belief, but many consider it improper or outright prohibit such discussion on a level playing-field where the strength of the points presented mean more than whether one is speaking for or against a particular concept. Unevidenced beliefs can't thrive in an atmosphere of open rational discussion. So those holding great affection for them have attempted to isolate them from the very system utilized in every other concept, to determine truth from false-hood.
Superstitious beliefs are dangerous. They have always been dangerous and show a continual repetitious nature of leading people to adopt and defend them violently. This nearly always leads to persecution, imprisonment and the killing of those who do not accept such beliefs. This kind of outcome is especially prominent with superstitions because superstitions cannot be rationally supported. Any rationally supported belief has no need for violent, forced adherence because it can stand on its own merit. It is only those beliefs which can offer no merit which, if they are to be held, must utilize irrationality and violence or threat of violence.
So why would anyone consider it wrong to discuss beliefs and to ask for support? What's wrong with testing a belief for validity? What's wrong with recognizing that some beliefs offer good reason for their adoption while others can offer nothing of any substance? Isn't that what the so-called "justice" system is designed to do? Don't we discuss various assertions and attempt to determine which are true and which are not?
To assert that it's wrong to discuss beliefs to determine if they have merit, is to suggest that searching for truth is somehow wrong. And it shouldn't matter that some have sorted this out for themselves while others have yet to do so or have ignored the evidence (or lack thereof), due to a preference of believing just what they like to believe. Belief in servitude to the emotions has never shown any tendency to lead people to truth. In fact, it has lead to a very long list of injustices, some of which are presented at the top of this post.
No one is being persecuted when asked to present support for their beliefs. Adherence to beliefs without support is where persecution begins. If a belief is wrong, no one should see any impropriety in demonstrating it to be incorrect. That's how we establish truth and learn about reality. And learning the truth is of great benefit to all, while adhering to falsehoods leads only to the perpetuation of ignorance, persecution, suffering, death, and the loss of ability to rationally assess concepts at all levels.
If one belief can be held to be true despite a complete lack of credible evidence, then why hold any evidence-based belief to be true? The entire system for learning the difference between reality and blind-assertion is lost and mankind, is likewise lost, for the lack of any means to know truth from falsehood.
COMMENTS
Beliefs are not my thing... I love stories. Give me some good mythology, a few fantasy lessons to learn from.
All major beliefs sound exactly like the old mythology we coo and chuckle about.
It's not only superstitious beliefs my friend, especially in regards to Iraq, that was pure lies and stupidity on the part of Americans acting on emotion. Unrestrained emotion is the greater evil in this world.
I agree that religion, faith etc has it's flaws but don't put everything on the shoulders of religious people, we're not all bad.
If I do a word-search on this page and search for "religion" the first occurrence is not in my entry, but in the comments. My key-words are "unevidenced beliefs". That phrase neither isolates nor exempts. All unevidenced beliefs are of equal potential veracity.
Good point, Morrigon. Can we not learn from any credible story, fiction or non? The entry starts with references to many non-fictional stories from which we can learn the same lesson... if we will allow ourselves.
Although some of the stories make little to no sense... Maybe the translation was wrong, but it hurts my brain that some people seriously believe it.
How can you believe those stories and laugh at the Egyptian's stories?
I think it has a lot to do with what you grow up believing. If you've accepted something from the time you were very small, somehow it seems less incredible (lacking credibility), than something you hear for the first time as an adult. But I'm completely with you. From an outside position, neutral to all of the stories, they seem pretty much equal in their implausibility.
That's all scary Dark topic stuff.. make believe problems, with make believe solutions are much more managable thank you.
Taken from the forum. This is not to incite hatred, anger or even emotion. It is not an attack on any particular faith belief but all faith beliefs, from voodoo to theology. I believe it is an important message for those strong enough to see beyond an emotional reaction and grasp the validity of the message.
If one subscribes to faith and is overly prone to strong emotional responses, I would suggest they turn back now.
(END DISCLAIMER)
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Mr. T "The victims of atheism outnumber the victims of faith 1000 to 1"
This is a very common misconception. There is a difference between someone being killed or victimized as a direct result of faith, and someone being killed by someone who was incidentally, an atheist. The ones that can be counted as "deaths attributable to atheism" are those where the specific reason for the death was adherence to atheism. You can't count the number of people murdered by killers with mustaches and claim them as victims of mustaches.
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Mr. T "Next, you'll try to tell me that Hitler was a Christian -- he was not."
Not only was Hitler a Christian but he stated;
"Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews ... The work that Christ started but could not finish, I -- Adolf Hitler -- will conclude." That's from a speech given at the Nazi Christmas celebration in 1926.
In Mein Kampf he wrote; "Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's Work." It doesn't take an act of vast imagination to see the Christian tie-in with Hitler's hatred of the Jewish people.
In a Reichstag speech in 1938 he said, "I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord's work."
In 1941 he remarked to one of his generals, Gerhard Engle; "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."
When Hitler narrowly and unwittingly escaped an assassination attempt in Munich in 1939, he gave credit to providence, proclaiming; "Now I am completely content, The fact that I left the Burgerbraukeller earlier than usual is a corroboration of Providence's intention to let me reach my goal."
This was echoed by Catholic newspapers throughout the Reich. Cardinal Michael Faulhaber even sent a telegram directing that a Te Deum be sung in the cathedral of Munich, "to thank Divine Providence in the name of the archdiocese for the Fuhrer's fortunate escape." Special congratulations were sent by the Pope himself.
It's easy to understand why Christianity (or any other connected entity), might want to divorce itself from Hitler and his six-million murders but no such separation exists in this case.
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Mr. T "That doesn't mean that faith itself is inherently dangerous."
Just about every con-game and fraud scheme ever perpetrated or imagined relies upon one thing -- the faith of the intended victim. One of the most common, relies upon the offering of "good faith" money. Without faith, such schemes would be useless to the perpetrator.
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Mr. T "Faith can be a powerful thing; it freed the slaves in America, brought down the Berlin Wall, and inspires people to free themselves from oppression the world over."
Faith didn't free the slaves. Faith delayed the freeing of the slaves since a popular faith document was used to proclaim that even God approved of slavery. The Bible outright prohibits the things God is said to dislike. But when it comes to slavery, it instead offers regulations regarding the duration of involuntary servitude, the degree to which a slave may be beaten and other specifics. And when it comes to duration, the basis is often gender and/or race. When it comes to beating a slave, as long as it takes him more than 2-days to die, the one administering the beating is said to have done nothing wrong in the eyes of God, because the slave was his "property". So you can add the slaves of early America to the list as more "victims of faith".
The Berlin wall was brought down by politics, not faith.
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You've made the assertion that secularism can't ignite the same level of passion. And perhaps that's what makes it safer. The vast majority of murders in this country are crimes of passion. Emotion can be a wonderful thing but it's no basis for making important decisions. That's why in nearly every region of the U.S., there is a special classification for murder committed as an act of momentary, intense, passion. One should strive to be motivated by reason, not emotion.
And when it comes to reason, not only do we find it as the basis for every confirmable discovery as truth, but it also fires the intense motivation of scientific research. The LHC currently stands as the most complex and largest machine ever constructed. It was built of the motivation of reason, not faith.
The bottom line remains this; those things which are true carry with them, objective evidence of truth. That which cannot be held on the merits of objective evidence is rationally, without cause to be seen as other than untrue. What requires faith to believe, holds all the same merits as those things we call "false". One can only believe in Leprechauns out of faith because there is no objective evidence upon which to hold such a belief. The same applies to mermaids and unicorns. That's why we call these things "false" or "myth". And yet they offer no less objective evidence than do other beliefs of faith. Only when one stands to gain (i.e. belief in immortality, eternity in paradise, 72 virgins, eternal love, etc.), will they set aside reason in favor of faith. That's why gremlins, Leprechauns, mermaids, zombies and unicorns are held as myths, while spirits, ghosts, angels and gods are held as theology. In foundation, they are equal.
When you can show a single confirmed truth which was confirmed without objective evidence, then you can argue the point.
COMMENTS
You seem to want a response from me.
So, you deny Pope JP's role in the politics which brought down the berlin wall? Fascinating. I'm no Catholic, but I think he was instrumental in that regard. The wall would have fallen eventually, but he and Lech Wałęsa certainly sped things up.
Politics, indeed!
You know that i cannot show you a "single confirmed truth" as it relates to matters of faith. I never assumed that I could & won't bother trying.
You claimed that people of faith were ignorant, delusional, dangerous, unrespectable, fraudulent, close-minded, and anti-intellectual.
Shall I tell the wicca and druids that they're crazy and stupid? Or shall I?
You also suggested that faith and reason were mutually exclusive; i asserted they were not and provided the names of men who embodied faith AND reason, and dare I say -- genius.
I selected a few of various degrees of religious conviction; a devout catholic, a deist, a pantheist, etc.
it matters not whether their genius or reason springs forth from their faith; i never claimed it did. I only have to show that faith & reason are not mutually exclusive to refute your claims.
to be honest, i stopped listening when you called Einstein a failure. I thought that was a bit much.
I respectfully disagree.
As smart and reasoned as he was; Einstein still could not completely disavow his faith; as remote and distant as he saw God (or "Spinoza's God" as he put it) he still could not call himself an atheist. I don't think it had anything to do with fear or divine judgement in the afterlife.
You claim his faith was a weakness, a failure, as you say. That seems harsh.
Riddle me this; why does an objectivist come to VR? if you do not and CANNOT believe in vampires, why come here? Why surround yourself with people who do? You have already dismissed them as intellectual inferiors.
I would ask that when you read my posts, that you do so much more carefully for you have misread almost everything I wrote and made claims that are purely unsupportable on the basis of what I wrote and purely not what I stated at all, nor what I believe. I personally know theists who are classifiable as nothing short of brilliant. I didn't call Einstein a failure. Many of his colleagues, in the latter parts of his life, did. I pointed out that when Einstein failed, it was nearly always when he subscribed to beliefs of faith rather than adhering to the evidence. I gave examples to support those statements. I didn't say that one who subscribes to faith cannot also subscribe to reason. I urge you to return to the thread and to again read my statements but do so very carefully. I'm not here to call anyone intellectually inferior nor have I.
I will state than within a single belief, if one must subscribe to faith, then they cannot also subscribe to reason. That which can be reasoned has no need for faith and that for which there is evidence is removed from faith.
I didn't place this here with any specific intent in your regard. It was placed here for precisely the reason I stated, the message.
I'm here for my own reasons.
Thank you.
All positive Mass Movements, commonly end once a goal set goal is resolved. Eric Hoffer "True Believers"
COMMENTS
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Morrigon
00:19 Nov 30 2008
Some people...
dabbler
04:30 Nov 30 2008
A child that breaks a toy, or allows a toy to be broken, shows the difference between what a child want, and needs, as opposed to what the parents thought the child wanted. A broken toy that is cherished (with hopes that it will be repaired) is what a child holds dear, usually for a sentimental attachment.
Practical toys are getting less exposure then before, the table is slowly drifting back in the consumers favor.