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Spells. Do they really work: chanting, casting, herbs, wands, so on and so forth? When you use them, do you know they are going to work or do you feel it is just luck? Is there any proof that they work; can science explain how casting a spell and the resulting outcome you wanted is connected or not?

They work for me, yet it takes preparation, time and desire. William Shakespeare said it most eliquently when he stated, "How poor are they who have not patience!" "What wound did ever heal but by degrees."

takes careful thought for spells to work, think of spells as prayer, often the best way to think of it for most people.

I'd like to refer you to a journal entry of mine that you might find very helpful :)

Does spellcasting work?

Magic, herbing, and all those that fit into this bracket, I believe work if you, the caster, want it to and believe it will.
If you doubt it or are just hoping it will work then you don't have true faith in what you are doing.
Spellcasting in any form requires dedication, belief and concentration.

Everyone above has spoke the true words. Concentration, and I also think of the magic I am going to perform. The words, the cleansing of my area, my intent of the spell. It does take much work, and under what moon phrase you wish to do your magic. It is the power within you & your words & the intent that makes a spell.

to a degree I believe they work but they have been known to als o backfire and cause more harm then help it's a finy thing spells u have to believe hole heartedly what you say and and mean or the spell wont work the way you wanted too I can tell u when ever I had attempted a spell in the past I would get this rush after opening the circle and starting the spell.

My spells work.I think if you have an open mind and know what you are doing they will work.Sure not all things work as planned. But that is life...

Creativity, and Interpretation play a role in any craft. If it is for the caster that is one thing, but if it is done with another in mind..

It is in my opinion that on this it depends on your beliefs and definition of a spell......

To me a spell is dispersing energy to do something... for example....


If you've ever made chicken soup for a sick friend, you put your energy into the creation of the soup and if it helped them feel better which was your intention then yes it will have worked....

A spell doesn't have to be something very extravagant, it can be quite simple.

I'm inclined to say that most any "spell", provided the intended effect exists in the realm of what is already conceivable, can and often will work so long as semi-favorable conditions are present. Auto-suggestion is a potent thing, and the psychodrama of ritual serves to cement motivations and the will necessary to enact small changes, whether subconsciously or actively, in the physical world around us ..as if there were another world to appeal to.

In the context of directing a "spell" at another individual, such a ritual may serve to create vocal intonations in further interactions with the person, or movements, which though seemingly involuntary, are fueled by the prior implanted suggestion and are physically registered by the intended target ..thusly creating a psychological effect without the necessary need to inform said target of the spell. A timeless example is one in which you bump into a person you just do not trust at the out start, usually expressed as "bad vibes". Of course, there is nothing metaphysical at work here, only your seasoned animal self interest picking up cues from the voice, demeanor, and appearance of the person in question.

Concerning the spells that don't work, well, conjurers of all sorts have always been experts at employing confirmation bias as a buffer to their respective realities.

In the case of a spell developed for and directed at oneself, the format is not much changed, and I would agree with the others whom have brought up the placebo effect ..an explanation that I feel is more than adequate.

Did casting virgins into volcanoes interrupt the building of pressures beneath the dome? Of course it didn't. Were we able to go back and converse with those who engaged in such practices, would they have claimed it was effective? Of course they would.

Anecdotal evidence is worthless in pursuit of finding realities because it's not objective evidence. It's just a claim. It matters little whether the one making the claim is sincere or attempting to perpetrate a fraud. What matters is the objective analysis. And in the objective analysis, tossing virgins into volcanoes is just as effective as casting spells. Neither one work, though those who engage in either will provide anecdotal evidence to suggest to the contrary.

i agree with what most people have said, it takes alot of concentration and willpower to spell cast, with me myself i prefer using crystals as healing

I have had a few spells work for me. But many have not. I think maybe sometimes a spell will work is because it was destined to happen that way to begin with.

We could hear many arguements that say Spells work and many arguements saying they don't....

but the same arguements could be used for prayer as well....

Science can never explain the power of faith or magic.....

and trying to explain the supernatural via logic and reason will take several lifetimes.....

We are mapping the conscious mind. We are close to capturing the meta-verse, we are probing the mind like we have probed the cosmos.

It will account for so many things that are thought to exist. Thought being the key word.

magic and prayer are the same thing, you gather energy and willpower, and direct it towards an effect, hoping that the effect will come true, regardless of the ritual used, this is what it breaks down to.
when it works you say it works..this proves it...when it doesn't, you say next time I have to believe harder....
i'm not saying it's untrue..just that potential exists both ways on whether it's real or not

the right combination of circumstances, fate and luck can make or break a spell. belief is also key. say the right chant, light the right candle, whatever is your preferance or style, if you think for one moment that it won't work, then it won't.

one of the first spells i ever saw in a book was a ritual to gain wealth. every day the witch lights a candle in a bowl and adds 1 penny. eventually the witch will have many coins. lol

some spell/ritual huh, but a pretty good example of what i am trying to say.

the spells i have used have worked for me. first you have to belive in what you are doing. you cannot fake it. second you need to prepare and have everything that you need. some things cannot be substitued or left out. third you have to do it the way it is supposed to be done. if you do it wrong it will not work right or will not work at all.

Personally, I would liken spells performed by a Pagan or witch to that of a Cristians prayers. The difference to me is that a Pagan uses certain tools in their craft to reenforce positive (or negative) thoughts directed towards a specific goal or need, and faith that their spell will be sucessful. Whereas a Cristian places their faith and hope only in God and uses no other tools in their prayers. This is of course just my opinion on the subject.
Do you believe that praying works?

Anyone I believe can make a spell work as long as they do them properly. But the biggest part in making a spell work is you have to believe and have faith that the spell you are casting works. Just saying you believe it isnt enough. It is no different than praying to God when you dont believe he exists. The more you believe in something the more real it becomes. Same with your spells. The more you believe in it the more power that goes into the more affects you get from it.

No I do not think Science can prove or disprove whether a spell works or not. A true spell caster knows their spells work without having to prove it to anyone.

LadyMajik

science cannot define it. that is the definition of magick. a hundred years agoe electricity was magick now it is mundane. Do you beleive that prayer works? it is the same concept you are casting your will into the universe. People constantly question magick, yet everyone accepts prayer this isnt fair, im sorry if i offend, that is just one of my pet peeves

by the way, i forgot to mention....

i'm performing a series of rituals starting next new moon and finishing on full moon in a months time
if this forum message is still up by then, i will inform you all of the results
if the thread is closed but people are still interested in knowing, message me.

hopefully these results should answer some people's questions

since spells involve craft, I place more stock in them then I do prayer. A ritual focus can create perspective to a problem whether or not the spell works.

Depends on what you view as spellcasting, which is similar to the idea of religion .vs. science. If something cannot be explained by what we consider reason, then often it is considered to belong to the realm of spiritualism. However, even this very concept is not without its problems.

The easiest way to look at it, is this. Does it work? If the answer is no, then it's probably just wishful thinking.

part of the point I was making is that if the belief is strong enough...then a spell would simply not be necessary....
the ritual of a spell is used to focus the mind entirely to exclusion of all else....so with the right focus, the ritual becomes unnecessary, IF in fact magic does work....which is not something I will make claims of one way or the other

Spells do work, but it takes lots of time, practice, preparation, and patience.
More than likely not the first time, but if you work at it and put all of your energy into it, and put hope, it'll work.
It works for me. :)

i had a friend that did a binding spell one time on this girl we worked with's ex-boyfriend and from what i saw it work he didnt bother her anymore ...so who knows i'd have to say yes they do until i see other wise

i find they can work for me, i tend to make my own spells, and it takes study into what herbs help what and crystals and so forth, with that in mind, yes i believe they do work but i do not know how you would prove it scientificaly

Beast, not all spells work and the ones that do, do not work all the time or for all people. the fact is that trying to prove a casting works by showing someone, doesn't work. there are too many other things factored in. the biggest is stress.
i saw a teenage gothic witch on Sally years ago who swore that she could make it rain. now i knew that nothing would happen. the girl created her circle inside of the building and in front of a live audience tried to call down the rain. it was foolish, very foolish.
i do know people who can effect the weather. one of them is my own daughter. without effort she has consistently requested and received response from the rain. she doesn't chant or light candles, she looks outside and wishes the rain would slow or stop long enough for her and her brother to catch their buses.
it does slow and even stops completely at times. i have watched this with my own eyes, the entire process she catches her bus before her brothers arrives and the moment that her brother steps onto his bus the rain comes down with extreme force as though it were a hose that had been kinked. this has happened 100% of the time. the one day that someone asks her to prove it, it will fail because of a thing called pressure to perform.
i rarely do actual spell work, i write my own "spells" or mantras. they do work when my energy is focused.
i suppose that for some spells do work consistently. i do know that magyk is real and i do know that it can only be proven by accident unless the individual has extreme psychological self control.

when a person like you is watching and expecting them to fail they usually think at least once "what if this time it doesn't work?" THAT one stray thought is enough to keep it from working. as your smugness grows their self confidence lags and all you have proven is they cannot do it when you are hovering over them expecting them to fail.

Spells work and I must say the amount of half baked books out there on the subject im surprised no one has lost an eye yet lol

One such claim to failing spells, " The eye of newt must not have been fresh enough." I left out an incantation.

Their was a skeptical person draining power. And the sadest one " Someone in the circle lacked faith, which really crushes the person that feels devoted to the faith/group. Tranference of libility is cowardly. Owe up to your own short comings. Demonstrate if you can.. If not then do not imply to others that they are just not privy to "higher" knowledge.

Interesting quote Dabbler I guess you can take that to the bank for sure. lol
“higher knowledge” comes from much studies … sorry if one hasn’t practiced the craft much

moonkissed,

400 years ago people were burned at the stake for predicting the weather.

what we have are conflicting beliefs, that is all. you are not right just because you say so anymore than i am wrong for the same reason. i was trying to offer perspective but i do not want to argue with anyone regarding their beliefs. in the end it is utterly pointless. i think you can agree to that.

that is all.

Yeh but science only works till you make up a better theory … then everything we thought we knew that has always done what it has done but our knowledge has changed lots to the point we don’t really know…. so now were smacking partials together … man when they find it there will be a big bang like our own …only smaller … and in a lab….. I guess what I find lacking in science is the true spiritual side not in science

That's simply not true, lavisbre.

Do you think that if next week we found out that semi-conductors don't work quite the way current theory claims they work, that computers, digital cameras, cars, televisions, stereos, clocks and microwaves all over the planet will suddenly cease to function?

Do you think that when Einstein determined gravity to be a consequence of warped space-time rather than a transmitted force, that the attraction between objects of mass vanished?

Certainly science has its flaws. The flaws are completely expected and incorporated into the methodology. True scientists aren't surprised when theories have to be modified or even abandoned. Those who understand the scientific method don't attempt to pick it apart when new discoveries provide a more polished understanding. They don't abandoned the process when they find they have to back-track and follow a new path. Nor should they because that is the sign of progress. Most importantly, they don't abandon the incredible success of science the moment it fails to support their personal subjective beliefs. Instead, they learn from science and attempt not to place their own subjectivity above reality.

It's something you won't find with superstitions. Superstitions remain stagnant. They don't head off in new directions when new evidence emerges. They don't admit their mistakes and they reject any progress to comes from those demonstrated mistakes. Instead they function purely on continually excusing their consistent demonstration of failure. They are beliefs of faith -- evasions of reality, evidence and logic.

Also please note that theories are not "made up". They're conceived of based on evidence, not on conjecture. They're then pitted against a barrage of attempts to show them to be contrary to the evidence. And only when they emerge from the barrage unscathed can they be dubbed "theory". But in that they are based on evidence, new evidence can alter them or crush them. Either way, it's still progress.

Superstition thrives only on undemonstrated claims, denial of their own failures and gullibility. It thumbs its nose at demonstration, dismisses logic and ignores its own failures.

You can suggest that science is lacking for not supporting your suggestion of the existence of a "spiritual side". But what you should focus upon is that you, as a believer in spirituality, should be taking the lead and providing the evidence for science to follow. Instead, we find that those promoting spirituality are just as devoid of evidence for their assertions as is science. Science is simply willing to recognize that a lack of evidence is consistent with imaginary constructs, while those who flock instead to faith-beliefs can't seem to recognize that their own failure to support their assertions is every bit as much to blame for the failure of those assertions as are the people you expect to substantiate your claims while being provided with absolutely nothing upon which to conduct research.

In the end, science has no objective evidence upon which to proceed for the very same reason you have no objective evidence upon which to proceed. And if you expect that science -- a study which operates on evidence -- should draw conclusion without the benefit of the evidence upon which it must operate, you're only asking science to dump and abandoned the one thing that causes it to be so successful in the first place.

You have belief and nothing else. And for science's inability to support your belief for lack of anything but your belief, you find science to be at fault.

There is no "spiritual". It's just a word people use when they don't wish to admit that all they're talking about is emotionalism and abandonment of logic, reason and evidence in favor of appealing to their own emotions/desires. And because it doesn't exist, neither you nor science can offer any credible suggestion of its existence. The failure belongs to those who adhere to failed beliefs, long after their demonstrated failures and well into continual demonstrations of their total lack of credibility.

Why would you suggest that a process which functions on evidence, is lacking when even you -- one who believes in that which the process doesn't support -- can't produce any evidence? And in recognizing that you can't produce the necessary evidence, it should occur to you that you're only admitting that you believe without reason, without cause and without evidence.

yes they work , spells are just like anything else you have to believe and have a little faith in it , if you believe in nothing then nothing will happen.

ladySnowStrixx,

Can you offer one verified example where a person's faith can be shown to alter a physical outcome?

CountessOfshadows,

Re: "if you believe in your spells yes they can work"
--

Making a claim is one thing. Supporting that claim is quite something else. That's why we see so many people making the claim that spells work and no one supporting that claim.

The reality is that one's belief affects almost nothing outside of themselves. If you truly believe you can run a mile, you can probably run a mile. But even that assumes that your physical body is in proper working order. If you've suffered a severe spinal injury, you're not going to run 10-feet no matter how much you believe to the contrary. If you've had a leg amputated and don't have a prosthetic limb, you're already done.

But people here aren't just suggesting that their mental will controls their body. They're blatantly stating that it can affect both animate and inanimate objects beyond the body. And yet no one is offering anything to support the assertion, likely because they, despite their belief, have no more evidence to support that claim than do I who disbelieve in what they say. So it seems clear that by their very lack of support for their own claims, they've demonstrated their claims to be false. If belief can alter outcomes, then by their belief, they should be able to demonstrate the outcome they claim. Yet no one is doing that.

One might believe with all of their will that they can defeat Tiger Woods on the golf course. But walking away from the 18th hole, all you'll hear from them are excuses. They might believe with every fiber of their being that they can defeat Lance Armstrong on a bicycle, and yet, a mile up the first incline they'll begin waffling and constructing all of the excuses as to why he dropped them so far back that they can no longer even see him.

Reality simply doesn't work that way and it never has, no matter how many thousands of years people have been making the assertion. It's a claim that is devoid of any supporting evidence and wrought with defeating evidence. One shouldn't make claims that they can't support and should strive even more to avoid making claims for which the contrary is clearly supported.

Your will has only a limited affect on your physical abilities and absolutely no affect on anything beyond your body. It's a physical process which takes place in the brain and nothing more. That applies no matter what incantations you recite, no matter what herbs you might burn and no matter what or how strongly you believe.

And I can make that statement because all of the evidence demonstrates it to be true, not just because it's something I've decided to believe.

Spells most certainly work...... They have been practiced for many thousand years and have definately proven themselves useful... But lets define Spell A spell can be a very complex ritual or a simple prayer muttered under your breath it doesent matter.. What makes a spell effective is the level of faith and belief you have in obtaining your goal.. The rituals are designed to get you focused on the task at hand... But the outcome is entirely up to you. Herbs also work but through an entirely different means they work through chemestry.... All drugs and remedies have their roots in herbalism.....

Spells totally work, what most people don't realise is that rituals and tools are all just points of focus. Once you can focus without them they are unnecessary. The power is in the caster, not the herb, stick, kniofe or whatever. Although moon and planet phases can be important, but you need to figure ouot what phases make you feel the most powerful. Books and stuff are great to get you started but most will have you hung up on ritual and religion, be it wicca or any other. They all restrict you after a while.

And every spell I've ever cast has worked, although sometimes too well with unforseen side effects. So be wary.

as a practicing solitary witch. yes spells and rituals work. it is all within your own heart mind body and spirit that will guide you. your energy and what you put forth in whatever you do. you must believe...

wicked hugs blessed be, darla...

I see a number of people making the assertion that spells do work. I'm not sure exactly how this is being defined. What must a spell do to "work"?

I'd be most interested in anything anyone might provide to support the assertion that "spells work". It's one thing to make an assertion, and another to support it.

Spells depand upon application and the conscious level and the intensity of the desire and level of purity of the person in conentration regard if spell's time the person ejected by inner from rest of matters, the spell will work perfactly in its time frame.

A spell will wor k if you know it will. They work because the desired results come through. Personally i tend to write down what i want to happen in a poetic form, with the statement 'I will it and so it will be' or somesuch every few lines, then i tuck it into my bra close to my heart for a week, then i put it in my pillowcase for another couple of weeks to cement it, it usually takes 5 to 7 days before you start to n otice the effects.

I personally see spells as just another type/name as prayers with the end result being an altering of the current norm. If you can tie together spells and prayers, there are empirical blind random scientific studies out there that do show that prayers work with regard to medical treatment.

prayer are also a spell but not directly as it done in spells. the prayers are done to third norm that is core of the universe where the person believe all mighty power alive and invoking the core in favor of the matter is prayer. the universe's each sphere if we pray have its core and ge invoked by our prayer reaches there and that is the grace or power of energy that cosmos makes things happen some says its point zero some says God and some says its own psi power. but thing is like that nature respond us per our ask and that is to allmighty... some seek salvation through Jesus its true pure entities such as Jesus can be invoked back to give us the matter we asked.

I make no argument that there are studies on both sides of the equation. Which studies to believe is in the eye of the beholder and relies heavily on their own personal beliefs. You may doubt prayer/spells because those studies merely bolster your own experiences. I however can look at the handful of scientific studies in companion to personal stories, and while I am not convinced 100 percent, I am opened minded to forces greater than ourselves and or our man made science.
But for your scientific curiosities here are a few:

* Scientific Research of Prayer: Can the Power of Prayer Be Proven A paper researching the effects of prayer by Debra Williams, D.D. Published in 1999 PLIM Retreat, (c) 1999 PLIM REPORT, Vol. 8 #4

“One of the most quoted scientific studies of prayer was done between August of 1982 and May of 1983. 393 patients in the San Francisco General Hospital’s Coronary Care Unit participated in a double blind study to assess the therapeutic effects of intercessory prayer. Patients were randomly selected by computer to either receive or not receive intercessory prayer. All participants in the study, including patients, doctors, and the conductor of the study himself remained blind throughout the study, To guard against biasing the study, the patients were not contacted again after it was decided which group would be prayed for, and which group would not.…The patients who had received prayer as a part of the study were healthier than those who had not. The prayed for group had less need of having CPR (cardiopulmonary resuscitation) performed and less need for the use of mechanical ventilators. They had a diminished necessity for diuretics and antibiotics, less occurrences of pulmonary edema, and fewer deaths. Taking all factors into consideration, these results can only be attributed to the power of prayer.”

*Another such random study was conducted by a research group out of Kansas City and published Archives of Internal Medicine. The study found that “on average, the 500 patients prayed for had 11% less complications during their stay in hospital.” *

*Double blind study showing prayer had a “statistically significant positive effect on a coronary care unit population” by Byrd RC. Positive therapeutic effects of intercessory prayer in a coronary care unit population. South Med Journal 1988;81:826-9. PMID 3393937. (Overview for those without the journal :)

*July 2000 study done by Leibovici L. Department of Medicine, Beilinson Campus, Rabin Medical Center, Petah-Tiqva. PMCID: PMC61047 “Remote, retroactive intercessory prayer said for a group is associated with a shorter stay in hospital and shorter duration of fever in patients with a bloodstream infection and should be considered for use in clinical practice Effects of remote, retroactive intercessory prayer on outcomes in patients with bloodstream infection: randomised controlled trial.” *Overview

For witches, we call on the quarters and the energies and the spirits (Lord and Lady/ God and Goddess, etc.) for them to hear our words (spells, prayers, blessing, etc.). With so much energy surrounding our words in the circles we cast, it gives them that much more power to be sent out into the universal energies and come back to us with what we desire...

That’s the most basic idea for our spell work, so you can understand what’s sort of being done....I didn’t want to go into great detail, because there is so much to explain, but to just answer your question, and support my statement with my personal belief, I hope this will help you a little....it all has a lot to do with your will power, which is greater than anything. There is a lot you need to know how to understand fully how a spell works. But how Christians may pray to their God, this is how witches in a sense, pray to the god and goddess.

I apologize for all of my spelling errors, but I would also like to refer to anyone who cares about my statement, th book and or the movie, "The Secret." It goes into great detail about what i explained with words and will power being powerful tools for your desires.

Spells, magick, all of it has to a lot with thought process. For any of it to work you need to first and foremost believe that it will. Sometimes it does and some other times it doesn't. As far as when and where, a lot of that is also up to you. You just need to have a little faith.

i apprecite where you all are coming from, and think nothing is wrong with focusing your desires and attempting to manifest them through various means. LilithSkye's comment (I mean no offense when i say this) sure sounds a lot like chance to me.

As it has been said, if the belief and will is there and you do it right, no reason for it not to work. I have several I use frequently, one I use daily. They do not give me what I want but what I need.

Well the last master comment did impress me very much its like what is the base in the vision "If you are viewing and feeling both that you are riding on cloud, you must believe it and you are riding, if you don't believe in that you are what you see is riding on cloud is true, you can't ride on it unless you believe in. so belief is one of the piller of the act which is not materialistic, may it be vision or sorcery or astral or may it be spell work or prayers.

I also believe that spells can work more like prayers. And one also has to believe that they'll work.

For me, spell casting is about being intune to nature and putting something out there.

I have seen many spells (mine included) work. I think it's all in how much you beleive in it, and how strong you visualize when casting.

It's really about the energy behind it and what you put out into the cosmos (or whatever you choose to call it)

first, with all due respect, id like to ask, what difference does it make whether it worked or it was a fluke, as long as the caster gains his/her result in the end.

My take is this, (and I qualify that I have been a practicing pagan for just over 14 years). Spells are a jump start to involvement. By casting a spell you are putting in place a thought into your subconscious mind. By doing this you will do more to work in the mundane world towards your goal and thus, your spell comes to be.


Id also like to qualify that this is NOT prayer in my opinion. A spell comes from you the caster. Whether God/dess has a hand in helping you along with your goal, that, i believe is a matter of your take on religion and how you work (or dont) with your deity of choice.

To Silvermoonnight

While I agree with what you say about the belief aspect, Im wondering if your thoughts on a backfired spell are in the direction that spells dont work or that they just dont always work as well as we want??

Having been a Witch for longer than I like to count, I have found that spells and rituals are just to help focus your mind. They are window dressing and in some cases an excuse to show off -not a good idea for any reason.
So if it doesn't seem to work, it is not because your alter was in the wrong place or you did not say the words right. It was that the intent and will behind your actions were not strong enough.

Spells are not a "fluke". IS a prayer? That's all a spell may be, a prayer with more movement. The only fluke in a spell is the person. If it's not working it's because you, the person, not the spell itself.

Spells work. Being who I am I know. But sometimes the person who is doing the spells is a fake, a phony they don't know what they're doing. I've been practicing witchcraft for going on four years and to me they work perfectly, I'e done my research I can tell the fakes from the real thing.

I am following Beloved by darkness into her case. A clear example of less then sensational understanding of spell craft. I find that craft in general brings resources together, as well as pooling networks.

La6Muerte66 I really do like your line of questioning. Its well put and a challenge to answer.
i cant honestly say that I have a way to measure out the spells outcomes statistically and I dont really know that I care to. When I said that I didnt think that it mattered whether the spell actually worked or if it was just chance and that it was a first step towards action, I didnt mean to say that it didnt matter at all, the point I was going for was more that, if the casters life has been enhanced or fulfilled to some degree by the casting of a spell which seemed to have possitive results, or learned some lesson when it seemed to have negitive results, what difference does it really make in the end? The caster has (or hopfully has) grown as a person feeling like they have the ability to change their world and make reality and thereby life THEIRS, or learning to accept that sometimes, wanting it just isnt enough, they hopefully have become a better person.

I do use spells, and in my reality they work, I believe that the divine has something to do with it, I believe magick is real, and I also believe that if I want it bad enough to cast the spell then chase the fucker down to get what I want, Im more likely to get it because Im inspired by my spell craft. Ive been practicing spellcraft for over 14 years and I have no reason to stop because they help me grow as a person, which is the intention of casting a spell above and beyond all other intentions if cast sincerely in my opinion.
As per how to measure the outcome and results of spell casting effectiveness, perhaps the answer will someday lie in the science of quantum physics, because thats is the science of nothing (but a thought) to something (matter).
And as per your comment just before this reply, I would also like to know how one detirmines the use of "fake spells" as opposed to "real spells" Ive used spells from charmed with great success and Ive used spells from 16th century tomes with no success at all. Whats the difference and how does one tell? if they can tell after four years, Im behind the curve on that one I guess lol

"In attempts to get cargo to fall by parachute or land in planes or ships again, islanders imitated the same practices they had seen the soldiers, sailors, and airmen use. They carved headphones from wood and wore them while sitting in fabricated control towers. They waved the landing signals while standing on the runways. They lit signal fires and torches to light up runways and lighthouses. The cult members thought that the foreigners had some special connection to the deities and ancestors of the natives, who were the only beings powerful enough to produce such riches.

In a form of sympathetic magic, many built life-size replicas of airplanes out of straw and created new military-style landing strips, hoping to attract more airplanes. Ultimately, although these practices did not bring about the return of the airplanes that brought such marvelous cargo during the war, they did have the effect of eradicating most of the religious practices that had existed prior to the war."

I've not a single reason to believe in "spells" (unless you meant seizures). However, I do believe if you mix certain herbs and the like, you may very well create a great recipe! I believe in the medicinal uses of nature -- as for the Harry Potter wand waving and chanting in reconstructed Latin (or gibberish) and expecting anything to happen other than applause from your audience, I would fall into the category of naysayer. Nay, I say!!

So it stands that we are in partial agreement as per the life lessons but not the method. However, i must wonder if you ever did make a study of the use of spellcraft -this by the way is in no means meant to insult your background or argument, I just want to be perfectly clear on that-
In contemporary magick and spell casting, students are taught on the first day (in a formal study situation) that just because they cast a spell for a job doesnt mean that they dont need to put in the leg work and fill out the applications. Personally I believe that the use of spells is for the subconscious mind. I cant site this quote but "he who wishes to change the world must first change himself" is key here.
Aristotle and Plato both taught that the only reality is your own, and that reality is different to every person regardless of how close their views may seem. That being said, it stands to reason that if spells are ment to change the casters reality and sets the plan deep into the mind, it does alter reality, thus the spell works in some fashion. If the caster then goes to seek out his goal and succeeds then the spell was a success.

As per spells and prayer being the same thing, I again must disagree on the grounds that a spell is supposed to (in practical theory anyway) be proactive, taking matters into your own hands. Where as prayer is asking some polymorphic higher power to do it for you completely taking it out of your own hands. While I am a believer in prayer, i do try not to rely on it because I like to believe I have at least some level of control of my own life and destiny. While I believe over use of prayer has a negative potential of breeding a forfeit mindset which becomes defeatist in the end. Spells dont do this, as they are telling oneself "I have the ability to do this myself, I can change my world"

On quantum physics, first let me say that those studies where not what I was going to bring up, I cant remember the branch of quantum studies, but there is an entire branch of study devoted to linking thought to form.


The point to the whole of my statements has been that solely that if a person feels more satisfied in his or her life by casting a spell that changes their own reality whether is is a mystical force or just psychology what is the real harm, I cast and Im going to continue to cast, I see no harm to myself nor do I see any harm to others.

Oh, and on a last not, if a person who believed in spells cast a spell to get something and didnt get it and kept casting spells to get it would not be an average person, they would be insane, literally, doing the same thing and expecting a different result each time is the technical definition of insane.

I believe that if you question it a spell will not work. You have to give yourself into it 100% and believe. Wands and stuff like that are just props to assist in helping get more into the spell.

It's been my experience that in a situation where I consider the use of magick, there is, at least most of the time, an intuitive feeling as to whether it will work, and if it will be successful.

The easiest way to explain it would be to relate a couple of incidents both involving animals, in which after rushing them off to the vetrinarians, there was nothing left to do but sit around and wait.

The first one had been hit in the head by something...I dont know what. But he suffered a head trauma and his lower jaw was nearly torn off. I bundled him up and raced him to the vet.s who took one look at him and said she'd do what she could, but didnt like the look of the head injury as indicated by his eyes.

I was sent home to wait. I got the intuitive feeling that using magick would make all the difference, so I did some. Not only did that cat survive, I still have him, he made a full recovery inside of a month and my vet still gives me funny looks whenever I visit. (I didnt tell her anything about the spell, or even that I happen to be a witch.)

Later that same year, another cat got into a car engine and suffered some minor damage to an eye and a broken front leg. Remembering the previous incident, I considered it after rushing the cat off to the vet. (btw. if you let cats go outside, I dont anymore, rabies tags are awesome. The car owner called the local Animal Care and Control, who were able to find me fast because of that tag.) But, I got the feeling it wasnt necessary this time. This cat would be just fine. And, she was.

It could be coincidence, it could be fluke it could be something more. I tend to not question it. If it works, awesome. If it doesnt, maybe it wasnt meant to. We cant control everything. I like having that element of mystery, and personally, I hope it keeps evading Scientific understanding for that reason.

Well, I can see no further argument left as far as our portion of the debate goes la muerte, I has been a pleasure sparing with a well spoken mind such as yours. I do however have one final question as per your last response, and one final thought from a historical point of view; that is pertaining to the comment on having no measurable effects I believe this must be asked in two parts:

If you don't believe there is something to measure how do you measure it? Can you actually make that statement objectively as science dictates you must to make a strong scientific clam? Since you don't believe you cant make the claim that you saw no measurable effect as in effect you have your eyes closed to what might possibly be there. However, I will concede and save you the carpel tunnel that i can not either be fully objective in the scientific arena because I believe and that would effectively let me find something if not for nothing to measure. So, how would this be done objectively?

And
What is your "unit of measurement". If something is to be measured, then it must be done my a preexisting standard, or a new and full operational system must be constructed to give an accurate reading as to the evidence either way. That being said, id like to challenge your statement on the basis that a measurement of the "mundane" physical portion of the world can not be used to measure the "mystic" non-physical world.



Pertaining to history, how do you explain the continued use of something that doesn't work over the last 10,000 years by what we like to fancy the most intellectually developed species in history. If we are, and globally we as a species have continued to use rituals and spells when they dont actually do something I would think that sometime over the last 5000 years at least we might have realized it and just tossed the idea to the wind. We don't keep anything else that doesnt work save for curiosities sake and even then, we keep them locked away in some museum basement. Perhaps its not the most scientific view point, but I like to think we arent such a dumb animal as to attempt to do the same trick without success for 10,000 years, that would just be depressing.

Two days ago when I was feeling my conscious hurt and I was not fnding any healing and due to subconscious was framed, I could not do meditation well nor i could do conscious work.

that time I asked my elder Master Aracon, If there any healing of chakra and conscious awailable, she drove me to chekoree indian spell of centering, that Idea did suit me and I tried Wicca way of banishinginstead cherokee centering and cleansing coz centering cherokee Indian way was new to me and little lengthy.

Wiccan way of cleansing did suit me and I am happy most from yesterday. it worked and washed all negativity and did fill me with aura as I did fetch aura from the sphere too yesterday.

Invested Intent, and pretense of application, when I listen to people pray, I hear a pattern, when I listen to craft (hobby) circles I find a common denominator. By voicing concerns one presents them to the audience, Crying Dutchess stated do well) via a third party entity. So if the group fails to respond with intervention.. It wasn't in the interest of the entity, or the disciple was not devote enough. I've seen prayer groups turn to gossip dens. I have watched conflicts resolved after people have requested spell intervention, the spell was never needed, just the consultation was enough , a postive use of pretense? The Intent needs to be considered.

I think they do work it also depends on the energy flow behind it the intent and what you would like the out come to be

I have had spells both work and not. There was one I did more frequently than most and I found that it would depend on my level of relaxation and focus. It was not something I could rush. Inner confidence also helps.
I never knew I could do these things and one day when I was in grade school a boy told me I was flat chested(true story) and I stared him down and just kept repeating that I wanted him to choke. It scared the heck out of me when he started gaggin up milk everywhere. It scared my friends a little too. He never messed with me again.
My point of sharing that was that it worked because I really wanted it and was overly focused.

Those who invest to much in spell casting, and become to ready to cast, using larger radiuses of intent, will also subscribe more to the rational sycrscy of believing that curses are just as real, creating a window of paranoia.

I absolutely believe in spells and the like. Some years back I actually tried doing 1. And those who know not where they tread need to stay away from doing such things.
Spells can backfire!! I know this first hand.

Positive thoughts will lead to positive results. if you think you will fail, you already have. if you believe spells can work, then they have a chance of being effective. whether there is anything beyond positive thought at work is irrelevant - as long as you believe there is.

They work if you or the victim believe hard enough. Its a simple mind over logic kind of thing.

Do we have any proof that prayers really get to God?

Honestly, I believe it relies on your faith.

I think a spell working comes down to two main things.................1. the intent of the spell and 2. whether you need it to work or you just want it to............. xBM

I don't believe they work.

For something to happen in your life or another's of your spells, it would affect many people, because when we do something, or make decisions, it creates a ripple effect. Think about how many people are affected and have to be involved for some of the events in your life to happen, how far back it would have to go to find the origin of that event. So and so did this, for that to happen and then that happened so that your even happened, and so on. To say that you created an event by some words you repeated and candles you lit...well, that's just your ego wishing it so AND, you wanting to feel you have some sort of control over your life and the events in it.

Now we do draw to us, LIKE energy, etc. So the energy you put out, is going to be brought back to you by the universe...being drawn to you. Creative visualization is part of that as well. Being positive is your best bet. =)

Spells and Rituals do work but I find it's the little things like preparing the room/place if your outside that your going to work in and gathering some of the things you need like incense,candles, flowers, herbs and so forth that help the most. The more you put into a spell or ritual the more you tend to get out of it. =)

Many answers to this thread involving mind over matter logic, but why does belief create results? Does it or do we just remember the random times they work over the countless times they fail? I am not suggesting that everything is bound to fail, but if I believe super duper hard that I will win the lottery (like the millions others that play) why don't I win? Is the ritual to the spell that makes it more powerful than just sheer desire for an occurrence?

I find in the make-up of people that subscribe to spell craft believe more then they are convinced, this suggest that few have observed results.

In the same make-up, are those that believe spells anticipate sensational experiences.
Those that believe that all spells they casts work (on themselves, or on others) yet also believe no spells work on them, or that spells can be countered. So by this one can see more loop holes allowing interpretable "failure", as there is for interpretable "success".

They work for me, but as one said..It takes time, preparation..The ones I have done worked and I made sure I was totally in the right...Or else it would have came back on me

"Many answers to this thread involving mind over matter logic, but why does belief create results?"

Could it be possible that by focussing on a hope or need long or strong enough, in the right setting and under the right conditions, somehow programs the subconscious mind into following that specific thought pattern, be it positive or negative, in the hopes of achieving that end?

If one focusses on a specific need long enough, whether positive or negative, would they bring themselves closer to that end with the constant suggestion of that need to the subconscious mind?

Some claim that while using a pendulum or ouija board, the user forces the results by subconscious movement to get the results they want. If one focussed through spells or prayer on a subject, whether repeatedly over time, or through strong focus on the subject, could they not somehow convince the subconscious mind of it's possibilities, or put themselves in a more advantageous position?

I'm not suggesting that all spells or prayers will work or end with the results that one seeks, but is it possible that one could guide themselves on a more focussed or direct path toward what they want or need (on a subconscious level), rather than throwing it all to chance?

Your thoughts? Anyone? ;)

spell only work, my opinion, if the person performing the ritual know what He/she is doing. Just because someone go the Book store, buy a book and then, SWAAHH...star charting words, that they even don't understand, and then, expect a change within someone life, is pure fiction. The real speller is the one, who take the time, and do everything in according to the spell. Time, place and decire.

You never really know if a spell is going to work or not. A lot of times what happens was not intended by the caster. I do cast spells and I have had some work and some that didn't

Bones,

"I'm not suggesting that all spells or prayers will work or end with the results that one seeks, but is it possible that one could guide themselves on a more focussed or direct path toward what they want or need (on a subconscious level), rather than throwing it all to chance?"

This is exactly what I've suggested as the sole usefulness of spells. While there is absolutely no evidence that anything supernatural is at work (or any train of logic that could lead to that conclusion), it is entirely likely that by going through a complicated ritual, reinforcing your intent to accomplish some goal, you program your subconscious and motivate yourself to work even harder towards said goal.

My whole issue with the discussion is the assumption that anywhere along the line something supernatural has occurred. You perform a ritual, you're more focused on achieving your goal, and you work harder to achieve your goal. Is it at all surprising that a realistic goal will often be met under these circumstances? Why give credit to anything but yourself for working for what you want? That is, after all, the only thing that has been demonstrated when all is said and done.

I think its just luck. As I have tried spells and none have worked.

not every spell i have cast has worked mostly because i did not prepare or i used an ulternet item in place of what i should have had hopen it would be close enough.

i can tell you from my exp. that spells work with out a doubt i have a few favorites but it would take forever to list them and i have not coppied them into my journal as of yet.

becareful what you do when you practice as everything comes back times 3 and trust me learning the hard way is no fun

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