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Let me know if this makes sense or not. Might we all benefit if the Dark Network standards regarding what rank is needed to create a coven are raised so there might be larger coven membership numbers (maybe at the expense of having less covens)?

So a quantity versus quality discussion?

Most likely.

But everyone wants their own place. Not everyone of course, but most.

And a lot who run Coven's shouldn't. I do not think raising the level would help. Plus, it is what it is. I do agree there are way too many covens but that is one of the perks hitting 100, Sire. You can then start your own coven.

I hear you... and ironically I'm not far from hitting 99. I think the biggest perk of hitting 100 should be that you're no longer bound to any particular one.

Thanks for the responses, guys.

Personally, I think it would be better if there were less covens and more people supporting an individual society than trying to make their own, but also be in others.

It has the possibility of creating real communities within the site.

There are too many covens that have the same blasted theme that its war when it comes to getting people for them....hell people if people want to create covens they need to create ones who are unique

Too many Covens and Mentorships, not enough activity. Cutting down on the number of Covens *each person* has may help - like the Sires with more than one Coven.
Gah.
I also think the sheer number of "Prison Covens" and ridiculously childish middle-aged people on here who run their Covens out of spitefulness and vitriol kill the system. I don't have the time or patience to deal with adults who act like children.

I barely touch the Society System as a whole.

They should never have been introduced.

They had their purpose back when this site was packed with people. Covens / Houses afforded a sense of family... kinda like how the greek system functions in larger universities (where an individual could easily feel like they're just a face in the crowd).

This might seem like a dumber idea... how about if in the society forums we all agreed to eliminate the Sandbox category.

Then the only place for "word association, ABC list, the person above me" threads would be in this forum?

Would that work?

Hmm... I think it sounds like a good idea, but maybe in the covens, you can speak a bit more freely. So maybe it's a good idea, maybe not? I don't know.. It sounds like a good idea maybe. There ARE other ways to have fun in the coven than just the game threads. You can have cool discussion and debate topics too where you can offer up your opinion about stuff like New World Order, Aliens, Conspiracy Theories, Science, etc..

I'm not really one to talk as I've allowed my coven to go quiet through my own inactivity on this site, but I for one have never allowed sandbox type threads in my forum. Just no...the very thought makes my skin crawl...okay, that was me being over dramatic haha. Um, I sort of like the idea of there being less covens on the site, but how would we go about achieving that unless people agreed to disband their covens? I don't see that happening. I like the idea of standards changing as far as how people go about achieving the rank of coven master, like raising the level, but then what would happen to the existing covens? I feel that the site has less active members than it did way back when, and yeah, obviously, these people are spread few and far between due to the large number of covens. I wish there was a way to generate more traffic to vr. We need more people creating accounts here, and then staying here as active members of the site. We just need more people.

That's a good point about there needing to be more interest in VR like there was a number of years ago.

If there were thousands of people online interacting, it'd be more than understandable to have this many covens.

So are we trying to have a conversation about VR as a whole or JUST the society system? I see where you're coming from with your idea Nein, I definitely do.. We want something like we had five or six years ago. I just don't see it happening. If we decide to just do the Alliances and not have covens then we're just going to have like 200 alliances LOL :)

MAYBE. OR maybe we make a LIMIT to how many covens each person is allowed to master?

The only problem with THAT is that people will pretend to be someone else to get around it.

As long as WE OURSELVES aren't willing to change, I mean... I just, I don't know what to say after that.

Like for instance... If someone sends us a message that says Hey Sexy, Nice to meet you! I've added your.....

OK.. I don't know this person. And maybe I don't wanna ADD them back.. But do I REALLY have to send them a message saying something NASTY, most likely HURT their feelings and THEN go on ALL my profiles and BLOCK that person?? ABSOLUTELY NOT. There is a delete button.

I'm not doing that shit anymore.

The other solution would be to merge covens with similar themes. This would take the cooperation of the current masters, to share the responsibilities, etc

Thanks for the comments guys and gals... like I said before, I was just looking at starting a discussion that might liven up the place.

i do agree you make some good points . like once you hit 100 you can be in any coven . and it sounds great . i just think the system should be more or less fair about it tho . it seems to me if you have two or more sires in your coven your put in the top 20 right away . and as for making people or helping people become more active and one time this was so alive . no it seems its not as much as it use to be . i think this is because most on here think more about their own profiles and less about the covens they are in . and then they treat it like just another place to make profiles and spend very little time on them . or chating or messaging friends on here . and then they are less likely to hang out on vr but more just check in once in a great time. i think the covens need to have some games like they use to not just post games am talking like best of somthing not just posts or honor maybe best of time spent on vr would help the site out a lot and in turn help more to become more active .

I personally think we need to cut down on the vampire themed covens seriously most of them are dead or filled with more profiles of the owner than active members.....those with creative ideas have to deal with the vulture covens holding vampire themes taking what little are active to fix the dead messes these idiots have formed...I also agree with limiting how many covens some people can run seriously who needs 4 almost dead covens who are ran mostly by someone who is problematic

To cut covens would limit individuality and expression. The reward of time on the Vampire Rave is just that, an expression of individuality by starting a coven.

why not limit the vampire themed covens...those with different themes are being overlooked because of the vampire infestation

Well you are on the VAMPIRE Rave...

I run a VAMPIRE themed coven...

I have almost 60 members...

MOST of them are active...

All that are there are there because they WANT to be there...

I'm pulling in about 1000 favor per day in activity...

So just because it has a VAMPIRE theme doesn't mean it's going to be inactive.. Remember.. MOST people who come here are coming because they are interested in vampires, you feel me?

As far as what Doru said, that's kind of where I'm coming from with the whole coven/alliance theme.

So do we put ALL the Vampire Themed covens together in ONE alliance?

Well the members would have to be willing to work on a more TOGETHER basis. There would have to be fewer alliances...

So maybe not cut down on covens, but alliances Nein?

What do you guys think? I'm definitely open to any ideas from any of you. We can work together to make this a better place for ALL OF US.

Well lets look at the name of the site hmmm its vampire rave home for real vampires. So what is the issue about vampire themed covens. That's why most come here to discuss vampirism. Another thing when a person spends time to level there profile to sire they earn the right for a coven, as well as a person who pays their premiums and follows tos.. shouldn't they be allowed to hold more than one coven? I agree it hard to get members, its competitive. But whining over how many covens that are here isn't the answer. if you focused on your own coven instead of what everyone else is doing your coven would be active. There have been some good points made here.. but are you seriously wanting what you can do limited here?

Yeah.. I know I don't wanna be limited. That's the whole point of being a Sire.

I know a certain comment was directed to me personally. I hold 4 covens, each are different, and active. I pay my premiums and follow the TOS and all my members are active, I still get messages from members requesting to be apart of "my so called dead" covens.. when in fact they are fun to be apart of.. My covens is a way to express myself.. This stems from my not allowing a certain drama filled person in my covens.. This is just my part of the discussion.. I feel if a person pays their premiums and follows TOS what is the issue with how many covens they hold? If their members are happy and active whats the issue? Next it will be the alliance, Dark Kindred is one of if not the biggest alliance, and the door is open for any covens with the exception of one.. to join us..

I know it was. I love your four covens. They are great! We've never had ANY problems with any of the covens in our alliance. We're not for drama. We're not about forced inductions, though I absolutely understand and get the concept, it's just not my cup of tea personally. I just don't want anyone in my coven that doesn't want to be there, ya know? And I know you feel the same way. If a member wants to leave, they don't get blinded and made a mockery of.. They just get traded for a fair price.. On to the next one! Cause for every ONE I get rid of, 4 or 5 more are coming in. I just inducted a member to Vampyre Seduction tonight who couldn't WAIT to get in! I've been the ACM in VS since it's opening. It's a GREAT coven and I'm kind of glad Cancer didn't change the name because we are bouncing back and this one's always been one of my favorites.

Love you my sister.

Limiting specific themed coven to a certain amount wouldn't solve anything. People would still create covens...only choose a different theme.

Also...that comment threw me for a loop considering this is a vampire themed site, and it would make zero sense to limit the amount of vampire themed covens allowed on here...but...since reading further I'm lead to believe that wasn't a serious suggestion but a jab at someone else. So...I don't know, yeah.
I think a ton of us members should post links to vr on our accounts on other social media sites in an effort to bring more people over. I've posted about this site several times on a blogging site I'm a member of but no one has been interested....

i still believe this is because of the fact its mostly 2d and so many are into the gameing 3d blog worlds . i still say some of the games and contests and a lot less drama would help the site out a lot .

So you mean like having a VR Games, like a separate site all together or like, a section somewhere on the site?

It sounds seems like a feature like that would probably cost a lot of money. Don't know if it would be cost effective.

I think everyone has good ideas. I think if we can work together we can get something figured out..

But I don't think the problem lies within the society system.

I'm new, forgive my ignorance. It thinks in me that sectional areas of a coven, like a room or hall(insert appropriate term) would provide diversity, while maintaining unity. Something to that affect. More experienced members would know more about the idea. I do like problem solving. Blessings to all! Lutris8

what about bringing in society games where the covens get to compete against each other

I wrote to Cancer about having Sexy & Moon's Annual Favor Race but I didn't hear anything back..

But back in 2010 or 2011 I orchestrated a site-wide favor race and the winner got a banner and a prize!

I would love to do this again.

I will write Cancer another message. The last one we did was a HUGE success.. We had like 20 or 30 covens that participated.. It was a LOT of fun..

And most importantly..

It brought a LOT of folks together.. People made friends that they wouldn't otherwise have made..

Yes.. I think that's a GREAT IDEA Cat.

Well I do like to give credit where the shit is due LOL

And you're welcome. :)

I have written Cancer a message. Let's hope we can do the favor game!

So any other game ideas that you can suggest or anyone else??

I'm open for discussion. =)

Oh...

littleflames..

Just to touch on your comment up there about once two Sires come in their coven they're automatically put in the top 20? LOL

That is SO not true.

Right now I have four Sires in my coven and I'm in the bottom. I think I'm like, 48 last time I checked LOL

And before my BFF opened up HER coven, I had like, EIGHT Sires in mine LOL and was STILL the same number.

So.. That doesn't really have anything to do with why covens would hit the top 20 to be honest.

well i think its based on an lvl average for scores

Yes.. So depending on the coven, it will or will not make a difference. If you have a coven and ALL you have is two Sires than yeah.. You probably WILL be in the top 20, but if you're running a real coven with members and inducting newbies, it's not really gonna make a difference because it averages out.

I personally LIKE being towards the bottom, cause basically, that just means my shit ACTIVE. So if your coven is towards the bottom, Sire littleflames, I would not feel bad hunny. That's a good thing!! :D

Back in 2010 before I got out of school and started working full time I had opened the first version of cognitive fabrication. I focused on activity, and the coven score. We were very active, every member posted multiple times a day and it was an excellent place to be, but back then it felt to me like stressing the coven score, and saying, "okay team we need to work towards moving above coven x" really brought everyone together towards a common goal. So having an active coven with a high coven score is possible, but I see what you're saying...covens with like three members tend not to be so very active. Now, I am not really focused on my coven's over all score, but that's what I'm aiming towards, once I have some time off I intend on rebuilding my current version of cf, focusing on rebuilding the forum and hoping to regain some of the activity we used to have...and then once I have a few good active members I believe focusing on the coven score like back in the day could bring the members closer together like before...I don't know, it just seems people work better and tend to display more activity when having small goals to work towards and achieve.

Personally it does not matter about the scores it matters if the people are happy and its active

I agree. I don't really care about the score. If I'm happy and my members are happy and it's active, I just feel like a winner. :)

And if you would like some help with doing that, NM, just let me know hun! I'd love to help you get the place active! =)

i still have no clue what them i want for my coven . and even tho right now not that active i feel if i can get some that like the coven then can make it active . and no i am in the middle so i am fine there too. i am with you tho dont want to be in top 10 thos get picked on all the time and some times way to much drama there as well .

When it comes to active happy covens its best to have a theme that is different....for example there is a chemical based coven...there is one based off of minecraft....these covens stand out because they are not flippen vampire covens.....hell there are zombies....the coven population is over ran by vampire themed covens which most of the time die.

This makes a lot of sense. But I agree that some people just want a place of their own. Maybe limit those with multiple profiles to just one coven? Though that would be a hassle to keep track of as well since people often give away profiles. I for one would be more active if there were more people on here. What I mean to say is that when I log on, I see the same people with all their many profiles. Sure they paid for those profiles and its their right to have all those profiles but it limits the interactions available and as a new comer that screams a boring website when its just the same few people and their many profiles.

I think one of the main issues with covens is the lack of active members. sure certain covens have lots of active members but there are alot of covens with maybe one or two active members that fall off everyone's radar

I don't think that activity should be the ultimate gauge for a success of a Coven. There are fringe benefits, I must concede, like fun and laughter. For example, the three or so Covens that I have been in so far served as places for learning and sharing. Good experiences, bad experiences... It's complicated. I mean, I do take this website seriously most of the time, but, I am just glad that I have sired out, and able to be on my own. As far as forced inductions go, I don't know. Some seem to be getting a kick out of being scooped up when they hit Level 20.

As time goes on more covens will die...and some people try to keep things active and fun but its impossible to please everyone all the time...plus real life comes up so things get hard to manage

wow she read my mind . things are way to busy and it seems i am on the go all the time running my coven is the last thing on my mind . and that would be ok if i had a ACM. but i dont i just wish i had some staff members they try and keep things busy when you have a whole team that likes what they do on vr .

Interest will lead to activity. I think it would be helpful if they categorized the covens by theme so it would be easier to explore them.

I also liked one of the houses that is set up by halls. Each hall within the house had a specific function.

When vampires have earned the right, I don't see anything wrong with letting them establish their own.

ok now i see you have not made sire yet it has and always will be sire never below that that become cm. 2nd you do not pick a coven a coven picks you . you can express that you are intrested in one but the thing is , in the long run a cm goes and gets what ever profile they think is best for their coven . i do not do it this way but it is the systems way . if most come to my coven i would let favor them out if they do not choose to be in my coven . but that is the system way and as for themes most dont even have them any more . or do not stick to them . you do have rolles in a coven one that can be very close to cm that is almost just like cm and you do not have to be a sire to be a ACM or asstant coven master . this is one other reason why i believe we do not have that many active members in covens because they do not know what rolls or what a coven is made up of . you have a AMC this is almost same as covn master . then you have a FM or forum master this person takes care of the posts for the coven . and other very good jobs. then you have the message master that when the coven is very active i would use that person to send out mass messages to coven members . say there is a meeting for all coven head or staff. but yes i think that along with expleaning your coven you should and i might at rolls that are open but let them know they have to be in coven and active for one week before they get the job.

i personally dont think raising the level or cutting back the number of covens would increase activity. people either want to participate or they dont. This is a VAMPIRE THEMED site. A Vampire does NOT say ,"Hey you do you want to be my next victim? " they take who they want. And there is forced induction, once youve made level 100 you can start making your own little vampire babies...

I think it could have been a neat Idea that all sires were in Houses which tied them to a higher up, and in turn they are all tied to the Prince. But leveling in general has kinda over run the society thing in my opinion too. Because technically I would look at the highest level Vampires as being the highest ranking vampire, in essence that should ALWAYS be the prince (Cancer) but now there are many many profiles well beyond his level.

anyway basically covens and houses are just a bonus to level and if your close to the CM get a mark and more bonus. The coven Im in has like 40 members but a handful are active, and alot have not even beenon vr for awhile.

Also activity is harder when the same person is running profiles in ten different covens and you can only have one profile open at a time in your browser.

wish the criteria for having could be updated to something more specific just to make it more challenging and weed out those who open and close societies a lot and this way there would have to be some intelligence and some sophistication to having a coven

just a thought or even an idea, maybe Cancer will read this and who knows


such things as having to have been a member for a certain time period
have to have a certain amount of no negative honors for so long
having to have a certain rating score
have to have a journal and a portfolio

any case i think more is not always better because honestly you can have a dozen societies on the same topic with no vast topics so it would be nice to have variety

i wish societies were listed in sub categories under which topic they are defied as

and to have a coven you should have to have atleast 2 other members to start one, now that would be cool

any how this is just my opinion, Enjoy!

well i for one do not have a theme and its ok . i take in all and any who want to be in my coven and am not hard core worker . but i like to think i keep the coven with lots to keep busy but the problem again i think is so many are just more intrested in the inter active 3d chats . if we would get more then just a blog for vampire rave . maybe even the database can be like ads for selling things vampire . this would help the site and make to more active . posting is fun only if you spice things up not same things over and over . the polls are good but also need to be about things that are of real importance to others . think outside the box. and the bite i have not found it used as much as it was when it first came out . i think you should only be able to bite if you reach a level of sire and that would help for the leveling and the logeing in . leveling is what things use to be all about now i have found it more to be the profile and what others think of it . and how we can out do each other .

that is great that you do not focus on any one specific theme, so your coven is universal in a since which can be appealing to those who cannot find the theme they want in other societies, right on!

i recently read a system message indicating a lot of changes are to be had towards the end of the year and i think this will also effect and help societies

Personally I think we need to bring back the games that gave favor to covens like back in the day when VR was getting started. I think we should bring back coven competitions between each other, and for all the profiles that ppl create that are stuck just at lvl two because someone comes and checks out the site, tries it out and decides they don't like it and leave their profile open should be removed. I also feel and maybe some of you will disagree with me on this, but if a profile has not been online for a certain amount of years then it too should be removed.

well that can only be done if it is not a life time pm for thos pay for it to stay on no matter what . they paid a lot of money for thos profiles . and there is a problem with people giving away the free ones . I don't think they should be allowed to do that . for when they do it harts the whole site and losses money . I think cancer will see this and with the new system or new site update no sharing of pm everyone must have there own I am not talking about thos who by or gift a pm out am only talking about thos who gift the free profiles that you get with a life time profile .

i think activity comes down to the people that want to be active some people hate covens all together and you cant just put alot of active members in a coven and expect a great result everyone has their own personality and fit in differently so it all comes down to a choice for every member

More covens equals more variety. If you limit the number of covens then people will leave because the covens will be too large and get all political.

I think they should limit the number of accounts people have to just 2. Some people on here have like 4 or 5.

well I will just be happy to see some changes for the last 3 years very little active profiles . some make them just to have people rate them and the rating is all 10s no one uses the whole 1-10 but why all 10s . we might as well not rate at all at that point . or some use it to hurt others and this is not ment for that ether .

all valid points... if the reason we're seeing so many profiles from the same person is so they can downrate others, that's wrong.
so, if the same person runs as many covens, is that just another side of the coin?

i for one have been in a coven that's been changed, merged, re created so many times in the last six-seven months that it's getting old.

why bother posting, creating rating stamps or even recruiting when it'll all get wiped out the next time someone gets a whim?

Okay...I'll admit that I'm just not joining this discussion, and I caught up on responses as much as I could just to make sure that ideas I bring up haven't already been said.

One thought I had (and I believe you said something about it as well, Nein) would be to merge the covens that have similar themes. When I was first on VR, for a number of years there were like, 8-10 covens. I came back two years ago after a hiatus, and I was SO OVERWHELMED by how many covens there were!

I also think that forced-inductions should be done away with. Once people hit Level 20, why not let them pick where they want to go? Just a thought. :)

JadedCrystal your thoughts are exactly how i feel.
Plus, it doesn't count if you have say, over 20+ accounts filtered throughout several other covens. I mean if you want to treat VR like a video game (lemme level up my character!), that's your prerogative, but why be the only active member going of your own Coven or between Covens? Makes no sense to keep creating more Covens to add to the list!

I also agree that force inducting someone to a Coven they do not want to be in should be removed because why keep a person that won't be active because they don't LIKE where they are? Maybe the lack of activity is because for one, they are in a Coven they don't have anything in common with. Two, maybe there's nothing more to learn or nothing new is being shared so they move on? or perhaps the drama has become so stupid to the point where people don't WANT to open up or share thoughts or ideas or anything remotely about themselves.

If you want to change something or the activity of members, it starts with presenting yourselves in a mature manner, drop the drama, let people decide for themselves where THEY want to call home.

You got Covens that serve different purposes and categorizing them by what they serve would maybe help the deciding factor. For example you may have one specifically for Vampyres, or one for people who are looking for more magickal aspects, or Lycan, Cat, Fantasy/RP...yadda yadda. It's hard enough trying to find that special place when you can't just freely CHOOSE where you want to be.

I think Covens should be limited per person.
Not per account.

That's just my 2 cents coming from someone who's seen just as much changes as anybody who's been around since 2005. lol

The idea of merging similarly themed covens is interesting. Would CMs be willing to share their duties?

Would it make running them easier?

I've levelled up but still have zero desire to form my own.

I think rules will remain the same. I like what everyone has said thus far, but Cancer is focusing on the site more than rule changes, which i am sure will come down the pike at a later time.

Having never been in a sub-group, clique, or section, my point of view might no be valid, howevr aren't most members here offline more than online?

There are thousands of profiles that lay dormant. Yet how many of you really feel isolated because of being in a coven or house?

well you see that is closer to the point . the covens are to bring more fun to VR but some times they do just the oppsite . but you do know that you do not get to pick the coven most of the time the cm picks you . maybe that should change and people might be more active if they do get to pick the coven they go to .

As I started levelling up, it's getting to be more of a consideration.

Coven are created with yhe Idea of creating your own "private" club. But, when a coven become just a "letter", then, there is no fun, in belonging to that place. Back in time, my Coven was super active; now, only a few of people post. I got friends who came from that time. Back then, chatting was embraced prety good. The point I am making is, to have a coven, you need to be wiling to work in it, and keep your members active and willing to be in your coven.

So, as one becomes an old hand at VR... their activity levels could be waning?

life happens

i've been absent in the past

More Covens will not make this place active. I never liked the idea of being forced to be active with threats of being blinded and things like that and I was active a long time ago. I get bored with the same old same old and being decimated by loonies that want to give people 1s and then block them for no good reason. It is disruptive and demeaning if you have actually spent a long time building a profile. The idea of covens is OK I guess. They are not primary in the vampire community even though they exist. There are orders, temples, councils, associations and of course Houses. Areas are called Halos. Houses are the major organization and yet here it is backwards. There are some groups not even labeled by names like that at all. The thing is being forced into a group whose theme is something that is considered a religion like Wicca turned me completely off and I finally told them I didn't want to be a member. I have never been interested in Wicca whatsoever. I know people think of vampires as dark but that isn't entirely true except in fiction. No one talks about anything of import in my opinion in any of these groups and a lot of the posted stuff isn't correct in many cases or too mixed. Now I know I am being critical but some of it deals with misconceptions. If you are going to have a vampire coven that is based in fiction; movies, novels or mixed then I think that should be said in the introduction of the group. Most who come here seem to know little about the vampire community. They are more into folklore and fiction. There were prominent people who came in here at one time but they left pretty much after a few weeks because they were ridiculed and the skeptics came out of the woodwork. I think a Sire should only be allowed two Covens max. That's my personal opinion. The word Sire is mostly used in fiction although there are some that use it in the community just meaning the head of a group or someone helping with an awakening. But usually that is a mentor. The mainstay do not believe that anyone can be turned. Another thing, don't make the backgrounds in the groups busy because it is hard to read what people post and that was part of why I wasn't active, I couldn't read a lot of the posts in the covens. This site is unique and why I stay but being overly active, I can't, I'm too busy with other things and this is a social site but also a huge game and I don't have time to sit here for hours especially rating. So, like I many others, I come periodically. Most who are active are generally people who haven't been here for years on end, except those who have reached Sire in most cases.

We have way too many covens with too many inactive members. There are a lot of reasons for that. If they changed the favor commitment all of the inactives could be sent to a dead coven after 30 days of inactivity.

id have to have a Civil War Coven cause that's the only thing I consider being an expert or raising Twins!

I could not be a Coven Master in a Vampire Coven cause
I would not want to get anything wrong since I know so little even though Ive learned a lot. It would not be fair
So If I rise up to 200 I will just be an assistant at best! :)

well....non active covens longer than 6 months get the axe? or...stake in this matter >< that will cut back on inactivity and keep leaders on, I agree with a lot of statements on this topic everyone makes awesome points , i'm still open to finding the right coven and shown ropes , as long as i'm taken care of respected and treated as a equal in a coven i'm all for it ,there are quite a few to chose from and it makes it a little difficult for ghouls like myself to pick a coven only to find after joining its inactive :(

like i said once before most are inactive becasue they push to hard for people to post they say you must post at least 5 a day witch is not hard but most do not want to have to do anything most want to be asked what to do not told what to do .
but the main reason is so many have put way to little on the profile instead of the activeness of the person on that profile .