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I was asked why I identify with paganism instead of Christianity.



Okay, good question.



I told them that I don't want to be part of a religion whose main belief is that slavish devotion to a cold, distant, uncaring, unforgiving, and (in many ways) alien god is the only way to be a good person. In fact, a rapist who believes in this god is a better person in the spiritual sense than an atheist who volunteers at a homeless shelter every week, campaigns for equal rights (equal rights are often sinful), taught his children kindness in love, and all other things that you'd associate with a "Good" person.



Now the part that bothered me is how the conversation continued.



This person tried to convince me that the Christian religion wasn't like that. I asked about equal rights for gay partnerships, and they said it was wrong and immoral, and those people would be punished.



So two people, based purely on the fact that they aren't sexually attracted to the opposite sex, are evil, despite all other factors such as love, kindness, charity, etc.



I asked if one would be punished no matter how well they lived, if they didn't follow that one religion.



Of course they would.



But many religions carry the banner of "We're the only right one," so why would I worry about the Christian one more than the others?



Because Christians are right.



Why?



Because the others are wrong.



Let me repeat that, in case you didn't catch it.



Christians are right, because the others are wrong.



No proof, no arguement, not even "It's what I believe." Just "we're right because you're wrong."



Can we kill these people? Seriously, their bodies are surely better used as fertilizer.

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imagesinwords
18:31 Jun 30 2009

You obviously weren't speaking with an Episcopalian :P There are many different 'brands' of Christianity, and mine for example- allows homosexuals and never damns them to Hell... doesn't ask them to convert and be something they aren't, either.



There are tons of different points of view. I am a Christian, and I am pro-choice, believe in stem cell research, accept homosexuals as valid and *normal* (yeah, that word is subjective), and I don't believe in the Devil or Hell.



Boy... we could have a conversation.



I simply post here because, man, a lot of really cool Christians get hammered because we get blanketed under that term 'Christian'. You never know what you're going to get when it comes to that word. I'm definitely not one of the people you've been exposed to.

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A fact is that which cannot be changed. It is immutable and recorded as having happened. It is absolute. Fact: There is no proof of the divine.



Truth is belief. Truth: I feel the presence of my Gods when I worship them.



Truth can be absolutely false. Lies, if believed by enough, can be truth. Shortly after 9/11, for instance, it was obviously truth that the Middle East was harboring weapons capable of destroying us here in the US.



Yeah. SCUD missiles can barely hit their closest neighbors, yet they're going to bomb us.



The facts said otherwise, and now the fact has become truth. Next year the truth may be different, but the fact remains recorded that we were wrong.



Interesting how that works out, isn't it?



So...Fact: No proof of heaven or hell.



Truth: I'm going to Hell for worshipping the wrong diety. Or at least that's what I'm told.

So people seem to think that this Christian religion is the best thing in the world. The only way to believe and not be damned for your beliefs. Okay. Cool that you believe that. Can I ask you a few questions?



Why isn't it the oldest religion in the world? Even Judaism, the direct root of Christianity, doesn't hold that claim, not by a long shot. Krishna, Mithra, Marduk, Horus, and many others were worshipped long before your "one god" was ever conceived. And where was this wonderful train of religions created? The Middle East, right? Isn't that where people have been attempting to commit genocide in the name of their god for thousands upon thousands of years? The fact that more than one of these groups preaches the same, fights against each other, and hasn't been wiped off the face of the Earth would seem to say that there's more than one god.



Oh, and before you say that older religions have all been made obsolete by this new one that you hold in such high esteem, let me remind you that Hinduism has been around longer than any other religion. Longer than most civilizations, even.



Another question, if you'd care to indulge me. Why do you preach love and then practice hate and intolerance? The Bible says to "love thy neighbor," doesn't it? It doesn't go on to say "unless they have a different imaginary friend, happen to engage in sexual practices that you don't agree with, or happen to believe that life doesn't believe at conception." So why do you go out of your way to protest things like gay marriages and abortion clinics? I may not agree with using abortion as a form of birth control, but I can think of a few examples that would make it preferable to actually having the child. What's a girl supposed to do when you take sex education out of schools, parents leave it at "don't do it," and they never learn about safer ways of doing what comes naturally to them when horomones start to rage? Or you could teach them about safer sex, and the risks involved with it. But if you want your children to remain ignorant, that's your bit.



As for the gay marriage issue, that's far too big to go into here, but let me just say this: Two people who are responsible for themselves and love each other, regardless of their gender, should be able to get all the benefits (and deal with the drawbacks) of getting married. Defend it with religion if you want, but the separation of Church and State says that you shouldn't defend legal status with religion.



That's all I really have for now so...

So...someone got me going on this subject, and I thought about it. Is America a Christian nation?



The Treaty of Tripoli, as ratified by Congress, reads in article 11



Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.



Seems pretty well spelled out there.



Add onto this that one doesn't need to be Christian to be a good person. The important bit there is having morals. Morals need no divine inspiration or god to bow down before. Just faith in the good of your fellow man. If you care about someone, you won't try to steal from him. Whether money, goods, their lover, or their life. Admittedly, there are grey areas in this. Which takes precedence, the value of his life or the value of yours? Who can answer questions like these?



There are no absolute answers to these.



Let me emphasize that. Nobody can answer these. Nothing. No force. If you think you're the better person, that's a bit on the selfish side. I'll admit to thinking that I'm better than alot of people, but I've had to deal with alot of scum. People that beat their wives or children. People who crawl into a bottle of cheap vodka right after waking up from an alcohol induced coma. People who are too lazy to walk across the street to go to the store, even if they need something and have the money for it. I'll admit that I think I'm better than others. That doesn't make me right. I may well be wrong.



But you know what I'm not wrong about?



Reading the Bible and following the Ten Commandments won't make you a good person. The first four (three for you Catholics or Lutherans) talk about how jealous your god is. The fifth (or fourth) can sometimes be ignored. While someone's father and mother are important, many people grow up without one of them. Sometimes without both. On occasion, even if you are raised with both, they aren't worth 'honoring'. Maybe love from their child, or pity, but i know many parents who don't deserve 'honor'. The rest can be condensed down into the Golden Rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.



Funny, I never learned that in Church, but in school. A public school, not a private religious school.



But is that single rule good enough? It seems so, but humans have more effect on the world than most would realize. Is treating other humans really enough when we have the technology to wipe out all life on the face of the planet? A simple re-write would fix this: Act in a way to harm none.



Simple, isn't it? Do your best to harm none. Not other people, not yourself, not animals, not the city you live in, not the environment.



Funny. It seems like I read that line in a New Age book. One of those on Wiccan beliefs. I think they called it their 'rede.' That word means advice or counsel (I even looked it up for you. Aren't I a nice guy?). They seem to take it pretty seriously.



No harm be done, do as you will.



I like it. I think I'll take that over the Ten Commandments of an insecure, wrathful, jealous (wow, sounds kinda asshole-ish) God. If I end up burning in hell for doing my best to harm none, doing my best to keep faith in the good heart of my fellow humans, then I don't think that's a God I'd like to follow anyways.

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Gothdrewid
13:43 Jun 26 2009

Agreed

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