Subjectivity; a seemingly innocent word at the root of all hatred, wars, murder and man's injustice to man. It is the friend of the irrational as it feeds their irrationalism. It is prejudice. It is bigotry. But there are rules.
The rules of subjectivity.
When a friend has a conflict with a stranger, the friend is always right. There is no need to assess the details of the conflict. That's the world of objectivity. Subjectivity cuts through the need for reason. It bypasses logic. It takes us precisely where we have already chosen to go.
Should a neighbor threaten a stranger and be killed for his trouble, the neighbor was the victim. We knew him. We liked him. It could not be that he was in the wrong. That would be an objective view. Subjectivity keeps our friends innocent and our world aligned to our taste.
If we hold a title, a function, a career or position; and know others of similar functions, they are always right in any conflict with those of alternative titles and alternative functions. The conflict says nothing of fault or explanation. It's not about the conflict, it's about our subjective value and our subjective desire. Solidarity makes us subjectively right.
We can kill men from other countries; there was no wrong on our part. We are on the side of right no matter what we do. It's not about actions. It's not about who caused harm. It's all about our ability to distort any inconvenient details to move the guilt to where we have already assessed it to be. There is no self-guilt in being subjective.
It is blind-assertion.
It thrives on rage and emotion.
It defeats rational assessment.
It allows us to hate without cause, without reason, without guilt
...simply because we choose our desires.
Objectively? Well... we're all just a little fucked up. :-P
On a table sits a box.
It has writing, logos and labels pasted to its exterior. Around the table, spaced at random intervals are a number of chairs. Each chair is occupied by a person. Each person has a view of the box. There are parts of the box open to their view and parts hidden from their view. We should not be surprised that none of them see the same thing. Some will see a corner with sides tapering into the background at a 45° angle to themselves. Others will see a flat side with a white label. Still others will see all of one side, a corner and a second side tapering off sharply to the background with bold, black letters.
It's the same box.
No one describing what they see is wrong. But none see the whole box.
COMMENTS
That is why you cant remain in the chair when you look at it.
Great analogy, the same for people.
Another version of the six blind men and the elephant.
I'd like people to have the chance to see a little more of you. Perhaps they'll never see what I do, but there is so much to you worth knowing.
There will always be two sides to a coin- at the least this is being acknowledged.
My coins have three sides, sahahria. It lets me be different but it's murder on my coin pocket.
That's a joke. :)
Okay... maybe not. :(
Joli,I agree with you copmpletely.And hopefully they will get that chance too.
Technically you are more than correct, if one truly looks at the whole there are the two faces of the coin and then the side. SO... it just depends on how detailed and anal the discussion/observation is as to what is expressed ;)
The six men and the elephant? I've never heard of that. I hope it's a legal film with at least a PG rating. ;)
I was thinking more of a triangular coin; hence the shredded pocket. These days I'm just trying to protect my technicals and make sure they don't get crushed on my biknical.
Thank you, Oceanne. And Joli... as always.
Having been rudely initiated to the fact that people have still not risen above attempting to persecute and/or destroy anyone who demonstrates facts which contradict their desires (See: VR Forums), I can only offer a definition.
Extort v. To obtain from another by coercion or intimidation.
For any concerned, please note that there is no limitation as to the nature or character of the one practicing extortion.
To align a definition with a concept and show that the two match is in no way "ridicule" or "belittlement" no matter how much people may not like the reality or the supposed authority asserting to the contrary.
One who obtains from another by coercion or intimidation is, by definition, committing extortion. That's the plain and simple fact. And that fact doesn't change simply because one may hold a dislike for that fact.
COMMENTS
Sigh..I hate this situation,and mostly because I really must be stupid or blind,cause I just couldnt see the belittlement in your posts.Cause no matter what you said,it didnt shake my faith..no matter what you said,I saw validity in yours,just as I saw validity in some of theirs...
Either way,hopefully this whole thing teaches us all a valuble lesson.I know it did me.
Sometimes it's easiest for people to understand a dynamic if they remove themselves from the picture by utilizing an analogy devoid of emotional attachment for them.
Try to imagine a well-trained vulcanologist wandering into a camp of people who are relatively (or completely), ignorant of vulcanology. To them the eruption of the mountain is an event spawned by a god. No matter how convincingly the vulcanologist demonstrates their assertions and concepts to be wrong, the ignorant natives are likely to react violently. They can't think beyond the idea that someone has belittled their god, even though no such thing has occurred.
And the more definitive the demonstrations which support vulcanology and refute the volcano god concept, the more angry those who subscribe to the volcano god concept are going to be. If they have someone they consider to be an authority they will run to them and demand action be taken against the vulcanologist for having demonstrated facts that they don't like. Ignorant people are rarely concerned with gaining knowledge. Most seem to be more concerned with remaining ignorant and destroying those who refuse to share in their ignorance.
So you're correct. There was no belittlement and no ridicule. When you get right down to it, "ridicule" isn't possible unless something happens to be "ridiculous" AKA: open to ridicule. (Those worshiping the volcano god would be displeased with that observation as well.)
But when people become angry because they can't support a belief they hold out of emotionalism, mob-rule takes over and you end up with a lynch-mob mentality. And there are always those who have pledged to appease the lynch mob by giving them what they want.
Galileo was placed under house arrest for exactly the same kind of situation. He demonstrated something the majority of the people didn't want to believe, as being utterly correct. Today he's seen as the father of science. In his day he was a criminal and a heretic. He spent the last nine years of his life under house arrest -- "banned" from society lest he attempt to spread the truth.
Giordano Bruno was tied to a stake in 1600 and burned to death by people who insisted they were defending their sacred entities. His crime was to demonstrate the likelihood that other planets would be found circling other stars and that very possibly, some of those planets may contain life. He was right but right means very little to people who seek their beliefs based on emotionalism and abhor reason and evidence.
And while many today like to believe they could never be caught up in such a display of wanton disregard for truth, we have both just witnessed such a display, on an Internet level. They're wrong again and have thrust persecution against those presenting demonstrable facts. But they have their blood and that makes them happy.
You have been my dear friend for about 12 years. I am a Christian and you are an Atheist. We have had innumerable conversations on the topic of faith, and while we don't agree, we've respected one another. I don't feel belittled even when I get frustrated that you don't see that I'm so obviously right.
You have been a contributor and member of several Christian forums apologetic threads and I know that where you point out areas you disagree with and your supporting facts, your goal isn't to undermine, hurt, or denigrate. You are one of the purest lovers of debate I have ever known. Unfortunately, most forums do not allow pure debate. Remember your recent journal entry about offending? Wear your scarlet O, you offender! :P
With pride :)
Though as I stated, I do not seek to offend. But if someone wants to be offended, there is nothing I can do to stop them. You're one of the most open-minded Christians I've ever met if not the most. I seek evidence, nothing more. Those who dismiss evidence in favor of comfort are likely to find my assertions as distasteful as they are irrefutable. (Though I do recall you successfully refuting me in a conversation a few weeks ago.) And it's been about... 10 years, hasn't it?
I think it's closer to 12.
There are times when I still ache for the desire to recover the lost flux patterns on old hard drives.
108 - (93 + 5).
But the hard drive data has nothing to do with the math.
My hobby gives me a good demonstration of this, I create ghost activity, I "haunted" a friends house for an after concert party. I had set the effects in advance, and sprung them once everybody settled in to the party, one female was very spooked she left the house, and wouldn't come back in, she swore up and back that she had seen ghost (at other times in her life) I explained that it was an effect, even showing the others in the house (who laughed, and reflected on how scared silly they had been) she finally settled in, during later conversation she mentioned (with an air of authority) that is was probely ghost that possessed me to do such things..????
True Believers Syndrome ? I would think so.
Although I have no knowledge of the circumstances leading to this entry, I feel the heart of the matter concerns what people *want* to believe (which was briefly touched on in a previous comment) and maintaining those beliefs that are percieved to be most self serving.
The aversion to counter argument, in my opinion may be in direct relation to the strength of the concept in their *own minds.*
I feel they fear their own corruption.
Those that offer true conviction with their words need not fear debate.
Twain once said; "In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing."
It's safe to say that while he was correct for the majority, his words need not be applied to those commenting here. So far, though I see a difference of opinion, all seem to have reached those opinions following much thought, much personal searching and the exclusion in many regards, to mainstream opinion.
Again quoting Twain; "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect."
Those here have taken long pause and sincere reflection to the form of art.
Having spent more than a small amount of time posting in online forums I've noticed what is slowly rising to the pinnacle of unacceptable behavior in many societies. It isn't, as some might imagine, assault or even killing. It's the act of doing anything that might offend someone... anyone.
People have gradually adopted the idea that they have some right not to be offended. I've not seen this in the Bill of Rights nor am I aware of rights documents in other countries guaranteeing people the right not to be offended. But this pervasive assumption has reached the point that in many areas, it's now illegal to offend people. It's not just a matter of political correctness anymore. Offend someone and you can go to jail without violating any other law.
In my state, if you offer a derogatory hand gesture to another citizen, you can be charged with a crime. If you offer the same gesture to a police officer, he cannot charge you.... UNLESS, he can find a witness who will state that they were offended by the gesture. It's all based on whether or not anyone was offended. Offending people is now against the law.
Of course this isn't anything new. It's the reason the FCC, (a board of appointed, not elected, officials), declared that radio and television were the only two aspects of American life not protected under the First Amendment to the Constitution (credit to George Carlin). Why have we all been relieved of the rights afforded us by the First Amendment? Because some people were offended by something they heard or something they saw. They're free to change the channel or switch networks. They can write letters letting the corporate watch-dogs know how they feel. But this wasn't good enough for fascist Americans. Instead they felt it appropriate to simply violate our rights by telling us that radio and television are excluded from the protection afforded by the Constitution. Obviously, the Constitution says no such thing but we not only lie down and take it, we actually defend having our rights revoked!
People pile on the bandwagon and begin making all kinds of judgment calls about what else shouldn't be allowed on the airways. If you allow people to utilize their sense of offense to regulate you, you'll end up with no rights, aside from the right to be offended.
So allow me my tiny corner of the Internet to try to clear this up for people, though I'll have to do so from the perspective of an American because that's what I am. I'm a "true American" with allegiance to the founding ideals of the country rather than to the new dictator of our time -- political correctness. I like to observe a simple reality about the term and practice of "political correctness". When we say that something is "politically correct", we're saying that it is, "other than correct". In order to suggest correctness, we have to use the qualifier "politically". Otherwise, we could just call it "correct". So obviously, it isn't just correct.
On to your right not to be offended.
Simply stated; there is no such thing. What you have is an absolute right to be offended. And if anyone ever suggests that you do not have that right, I'll be more than happy to take up the debate for you. You have every right to be offended whenever it suits your purpose, aligns with your sensibilities or simply strikes your fancy. No one has any right to impinge upon your right to be offended. (Can I get a cheer?)
But here is where it gets a little sticky and here is where people become misguided. Your right to be offended in no way implies any right to control or alter the conduct of others. If anyone is offended by this, so much the better. Not that I have any intention to offend, but if you wish to practice that right, by all means, do as you please. Just don't mistake your right to be offended as any kind of right to control other people.
This assumed right to control others, via proclamations of offense is so pervasive that it can be found in nearly every form of social interaction. There are things you can't say, things you can't show, things you can't suggest and things you must warn people about; all in the name of attempting to prevent them from finding any reason to exercise their right to be offended. And the reason we're so concerned about them exercising the right to be offended is that once they do, others will seek to remove our right to do, say, think, imply, produce, exhibit or indicate anything to which someone might take offense.
It's my right (not my intent), to offend.
It is your right to be offended.
DONE!
People should be very careful not to assume that their right over-rides my right. The two actually work quite nicely together. So; as someone who posts here quite frequently (though only recently), I reserve my right to present that which others may find to be offensive. There really isn't any way to avoid this anyway. No matter what you believe, think, say, suggest, play on the radio, watch on television, gesture, scratch, imply or state; someone somewhere will take offense. It's one of the few absolute guarantees we have.
The moment anyone feels they have the right to impinge upon my right to offend, based on their right to be offended, I will take absolute offense. If you're one of the easily-lead robots of society, continually churning and avoiding anything which might tickle the offense of another, then this message is for you. I find you offensive and have every right to do so. And as you have the right to be offensive, please do not allow my offense to at all hinder your offensive practices. They are yours. Use them in good health and allow me the same right.
Are you offended? Good! Good for you! But it's nothing I have done. It's what you have chosen for yourself.
Now back away slowly.
COMMENTS
Way to be on the offense for the defense of offense!
wow
Thank you for standing up for my rights to stand up for my own sensibilities, and not have it done for me by a committee.
The notion of freedom of speech in the majority of circumstances, appears only to extend to content that does not rock the status quo.
I absolutely agree with your opinion of "the offended."
It is a definite and conscious mental decision.
Not only that, but the subject matter of the offensive matter is completely interpretational and shaped largely by the existing mental and emotional conditions of the one offended, often creating personal connections where there were none intended.
Therefore being offended is completely unecessary.
If personalism is involved, one may assume the opinion offered is merely that; an opinion. Which is formed with its own conditions of perception.
The accuracy of any opinion expressed is highly questionable.
I like the way this girl thinks; but mostly because she very obviously does think!
I prefer someone who disagrees with me because they reasoned their way to an opinion to anyone who agrees with me simply by adopting the opinions of another.
COMMENTS
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Joli
01:40 Sep 16 2008
I'm more than just a little ;)
Beastt17
09:36 Sep 16 2008
Isn't that just like you? Everything you do, you do better than everyone else. :)
(You just don't always see it that way.)
Joli
23:30 Sep 16 2008
You know, one day I'm going to fall off that pedestal you have me on. I will die a terrible death. Nobody could live through a fall from that ridiculous a height.
Beastt17
09:09 Sep 17 2008
Perhaps there is some truth to what you say and I should try to be more objective. So here goes... you're right, Lance is a better rider.
Feeling better down here in epistaxis non-grata? :)
AlexandraAshes
21:05 Nov 09 2008
I do not believe that true objective reality exists. And if it does, we have no infallible means of verifying it.
All human concept is open to interpretation and analysis which is based on personal perception.
Communicating "objectively" is precarious at best, we merely play semantics games until we estimate an adequate understanding has been established.
Beastt17
07:49 Nov 10 2008
Subjectively, many people believe in a god (or several), angels, spirits, etc. They're not necessarily the same gods and the properties of an angel or spirit vary subjectively. Objectively, most will agree that no testable solid evidence exists to support the subjective belief.
Stated another way; 10 people may be in the same place at the same time and 4 of those people may proclaim that they "sense" an "energy" while the other six do not. It is however, extremely unlikely that any will insist that they see a reading on an instrument designed to detect energy fields, when no such reading exists. Subjectivity does help to shape our perceptions. But the onslaught of objective observation can eventually rule out subjective claims for all but those with the least stable connection to reality.